469 replies to this topic

[tonychen]

Since Manning won his last and only Super Bowl, he is 2-5 in playoffs, including 4 one-and-dones and a Super Bowl loss. In 09's run he did not play very well either - Thanks to Garcon's effort he avoided a pick-6 in the Raven's game. In the Jets game he was lucky to figure it out at half time. Both Pats and Chargers got eliminated.

 

After he won the Super Bowl everybody believed he finally took the monkey off his back, but every yr he proved people wrong.

 

Together with many fans, I used to say it's Colts fault for not supporting him enough. This time many blame the Denver defense for blowing the coverage. I thinks it was insane defensive play calling at the end of the regular time. But it could have stopped much earlier considering Holiday game them 14 points for free and the team never trailed. Manning had so many opportunities to get ahead with confortable lead, but he failed every time. His uner-throwing Thomas resulted in the failed FG before the end of 1st half and a Ravens TD. His 3 TOs turned into 17 pts with a FG ending the game. He never threw down field for a single time. He blew the three opportunities to drive into FG range in the OT. It just did not look elite. Manning did look old and tired.

 

Manning's offensive scheme works - only in the regular season. In playoffs against good teams, it does not work consistently. He is an offensive coordinator on the field, but he is not a very successful one in the playoff. The scheme is too simple and the adjustment is too slow. When facing playoff teams which have conplex game plans and are playing lightout, only having Manning's own plan is not enough. However, since no alternative options has been tried in the regular season, the coaches have no idea how to help him and they are caught off guard.

 

I still think the best choice for Manning - if his purpose was to win another Super Bowl -  was to join SF and simply play QB, not OC, in their scheme. I believe he understood it, but if not for being in the same conference as Eli, he insisted to his own scheme and always wanted to prove he can win big games on his own. Knowing Jim Harbaugh's strong personality, he selected to join a team that would allow him to do everything he wanted. They quickly gave up the tries to infuse their playbook with Manning's earlier in the season and gave him full control. They didn't even try to add anything new even when they were cruising late in the season. Manning demanded prefect execution, but when the opponents kinda figure it out or he is not 100% he is also confused and helpless.

 

Sorry Mr. Manning, your play-calling doesn't work in big games. You were out-coached by Belichick and out-played by Brady before, same by Sean Payton and Brees, and now the dummy Jim Caldwell and Flacco. Football is an ultimate team game and it takes more than one arrogant QB to win in big games nowadays. The young QBs are growing up and teams are evolving. Time for you to find some help if you still want another ring. The window is about to close, better hurry up.

[jjcolts]

Easy to criticize from behind the keyboard huh?

 

This game is difficult, play at his level first, the elite, revolutionary level, then write an article such as above.

[tonychen]

Easy to criticize from behind the keyboard huh?

 

This game is difficult, play at his level first, the elite, revolutionary level, then write an article such as above.

 

OK I never want to deny his elite and revolutionary level, but he only holds a 9-11 playoff record. He just blew another chance and it could be his best chance ever. Every yr going to the playoff he has a speech prepared for disappointment. Too many one-and-dones even to inferior teams.

 

After watching Brady blowing the Texans out, I for the 1st time in 10 yrs admit he is worse than Brady.

[21isSuperman]

For starters, football is a team sport.  Sure, Peyton has lost a number of playoff games, but why don't people say the same thing about Reggie Wayne?  Or Dwight Freeney?  Peyton doesn't block, he doesn't tackle, he doesn't catch, he doesn't run, he doesn't cover WRs.  He is part of a team.  He had opportunities to put the game away, but so did the Denver defense.  Rahim Moore had a pick thrown for him on a platter and he misjudged the ball's trajectory.  Peyton's first pick also wasn't his fault since it was a catchable pass thrown that hit the receiver in the hands.  If turnovers are Peyton's fault, is it also Peyton's fault that the defense can't stop the Ravens' offense?

 

You claim that Peyton's system is flawed because he has lost to the Ravens and Patriots.  However, his recent loss was the very first loss he had against the Ravens in his career and he has beaten Belichick a number of times.  If Manning's offensive system is too simple, why has he been getting better each year? If your statement was correct, he should have been beaten many times by now since coaches would have figured out his simple system.  Instead, he impresses us each year.

 

Your comment about him being an arrogant person is ridiculous, ludicrous, and laughable.  I also find it ironic how you say that football is the ultimate team game, but then blame everything on Peyton.  Furthermore, QBs don't play each other.  Put me at QB with a roster and give me the 49ers defense.  Put Peyton at the other QB and give him a high school football defense.  I will probably "outplay" Peyton, but he is the far superior QB.

 

You also sound really mad at Peyton.  Has he done something to offend you?  A lot of people seem mad at Peyton for some reason and I don't get it.  It's as though people feel like Peyton owes them a victory and then they get mad and call him arrogant or a choker when his team loses.

[Dustin]

Your analysis is so terrible and wrong that I actually find it funny.

 

This was my favorite part: "Manning's offensive scheme works - only in the regular season."

 

Okay, what offensive scheme would that be? Explain to me what type of offensive system he runs and why it suddenly doesn't work in January.

[tonychen]

Your analysis is so terrible and wrong that I actually find it funny.

 

This was my favorite part: "Manning's offensive scheme works - only in the regular season."

 

Okay, what offensive scheme would that be? Explain to me what type of offensive system he runs and why it suddenly doesn't work in January.

 

It looks cool and smart to call every play by the QB, but there are many teams whose QB executes mainly the play calling from the OC on the sideline and audibles for some simple things and still they outplay Manning. His OCs for yrs have been clueless.

 

Don't forget his record against playoff teams has been no more than 50-50 in recent seasons. His key to regular season is to win all games against bad teams.

[Dustin]

It looks cool and smart to call every play by the QB, but there are many teams whose QB executes mainly the play calling from the OC on the sideline and audibles for some simple things and still they outplay Manning. His OCs for yrs have been clueless.

 

Don't forget his record against playoff teams has been no more than 50-50 in recent seasons. His key to regular season is to win all games against bad teams.

 

You didn't answer my question even remotely.

[tonychen]

For starters, football is a team sport.  Sure, Peyton has lost a number of playoff games, but why don't people say the same thing about Reggie Wayne?  Or Dwight Freeney?  Peyton doesn't block, he doesn't tackle, he doesn't catch, he doesn't run, he doesn't cover WRs.  He is part of a team.  He had opportunities to put the game away, but so did the Denver defense.  Rahim Moore had a pick thrown for him on a platter and he misjudged the ball's trajectory.  Peyton's first pick also wasn't his fault since it was a catchable pass thrown that hit the receiver in the hands.  If turnovers are Peyton's fault, is it also Peyton's fault that the defense can't stop the Ravens' offense?

 

You claim that Peyton's system is flawed because he has lost to the Ravens and Patriots.  However, his recent loss was the very first loss he had against the Ravens in his career and he has beaten Belichick a number of times.  If Manning's offensive system is too simple, why has he been getting better each year? If your statement was correct, he should have been beaten many times by now since coaches would have figured out his simple system.  Instead, he impresses us each year.

 

Your comment about him being an arrogant person is ridiculous, ludicrous, and laughable.  I also find it ironic how you say that football is the ultimate team game, but then blame everything on Peyton.  Furthermore, QBs don't play each other.  Put me at QB with a roster and give me the 49ers defense.  Put Peyton at the other QB and give him a high school football defense.  I will probably "outplay" Peyton, but he is the far superior QB.

 

You also sound really mad at Peyton.  Has he done something to offend you?  A lot of people seem mad at Peyton for some reason and I don't get it.  It's as though people feel like Peyton owes them a victory and then they get mad and call him arrogant or a choker when his team loses.

 

Maybe I shouldn't call him arrogant, but to give up infusing any offensive scheme of his new team only 2-3 weeks into the season surely isn't an humle action.

[21isSuperman]

It looks cool and smart to call every play by the QB, but there are many teams whose QB executes mainly the play calling from the OC on the sideline and audibles for some simple things and still they outplay Manning. His OCs for yrs have been clueless.

 

Don't forget his record against playoff teams has been no more than 50-50 in recent seasons. His key to regular season is to win all games against bad teams.

You will not find a single person who thinks it is bad to have the smarts Peyton has.  Not only that, but there are no "bad teams" in the NFL.  Last year's Packers lost to the Chiefs.  This year, the Pats lost to the Cardinals.  Any given Sunday, any team can win

[Dustin]

You will not find a single person who thinks it is bad to have the smarts Peyton has.  Not only that, but there are no "bad teams" in the NFL.  Last year's Packers lost to the Chiefs.  This year, the Pats lost to the Cardinals.  Any given Sunday, any team can win

Not only that, but his argument about "losing to good teams because he only plays bad teams" doesn't even make sense because the Broncos had already beaten the Ravens this year. Pretty handily I might add.

[21isSuperman]

Maybe I shouldn't call him arrogant, but to give up infusing any offensive scheme of his new team only 2-3 weeks into the season surely isn't an humle action.

He and McCoy both discussed it and it is well documented that the two of them worked on it together.  I don't think McCoy is that great of an offensive coordinator, so it's very possible that Peyton brought up many new concepts that have worked in the past and McCoy liked them and incorporated them.  And Peyton had another great offensive year.  His offensive system works.  If it didn't work, he would have been stopped many years ago

[jjcolts]

OK I never want to deny his elite and revolutionary level, but he only holds a 9-11 playoff record. He just blew another chance and it could be his best chance ever. Every yr going to the playoff he has a speech prepared for disappointment. Too many one-and-dones even to inferior teams.

 

After watching Brady blowing the Texans out, I for the 1st time in 10 yrs admit he is worse than Brady.

Manning worse than Brady, okay, that is a very astute observation.

[jjcolts]

It looks cool and smart to call every play by the QB, but there are many teams whose QB executes mainly the play calling from the OC on the sideline and audibles for some simple things and still they outplay Manning. His OCs for yrs have been clueless.

 

Don't forget his record against playoff teams has been no more than 50-50 in recent seasons. His key to regular season is to win all games against bad teams.

LOL....LOL 

 

I am sure that is Peyton's game plan before every season start.

[tonychen]

You will not find a single person who thinks it is bad to have the smarts Peyton has.  Not only that, but there are no "bad teams" in the NFL.  Last year's Packers lost to the Chiefs.  This year, the Pats lost to the Cardinals.  Any given Sunday, any team can win

 

I am only mad at Manning's failing every time. If it's the team not helping him enough before, this Denver team surely has helped him a lot by adding 14 points for free. I just don't know why there are so many one-and-dones for him while Brady generally doesn't fall in his 1st round.

 

If it happens only once, it is "any given sunday". If it happens only for one team, it could be for this team. Now it looks like his own problem.

[21isSuperman]

I am only mad at Manning's failing every time. If it's the team not helping him enough before, this Denver team surely has helped him a lot by adding 14 points for free. I just don't know why there are so many one-and-dones for him while Brady generally doesn't fall in his 1st round.

 

If it happens only once, it is "any given sunday". If it happens only for one team, it could be for this team. Now it looks like his own problem.

http://bleacherrepor...orks-of-fiction

 

Only for one team?  Peyton had 4 losses all year if you include the playoff game and those came in the first few weeks when he was still getting used to the new guys around him.  He went on an 11 game winning streak in which he beat San Diego twice, who you claim that he can't beat

[BLOODontheTRACKS]

Hasn't this been covered in the 20 other posts about manning?

[tonychen]

http://bleacherrepor...orks-of-fiction

 

Only for one team?  Peyton had 4 losses all year if you include the playoff game and those came in the first few weeks when he was still getting used to the new guys around him.  He went on an 11 game winning streak in which he beat San Diego twice, who you claim that he can't beat

 

I mean he switched team but the way they failed was just similar to his previous collapses.

[tonychen]

Manning worse than Brady, okay, that is a very astute observation.

 

I just feel so bad for Manning. For so many yrs I have been defending him, but having watched how Brady played against Texans and compare that with Manning's shaky game yesterday, I for now just don't have anything to defend him on. Brady took his team to a 3-score lead and Manning failed to drive for a FG and missed countless chances for a 2-score lead. If Ravens can do the same to Brady next week, I will be more than happy, but I doubt they would be blown out by Pats.

[21isSuperman]

I mean he switched team but the way they failed was just similar to his previous collapses.

Perhaps it was due to similar circumstances on the team's part, not on Peyton's.  I've never liked John Fox as a head coach.  I liked Dungy, but I don't think he or Caldwell were all that great.  Not only that, but it's not very often that a team puts up 35 points and still loses.  When the defense gives up 38 points to an offense led by Joe Flacco, you have some big problems.  Had Caldwell not called that timeout in 2010, we could have beaten the Jets.  Had Garcon caught the TD pass, Bethea picked off Brees, or the defense made a single stop in general in the Super Bowl game against the Saints, we could have won that.  Football is the ultimate team game, as you said.  It's hard to blame it all on Peyton when his defense gives up 38 points or he has to deal with his own head coach.

[jjcolts]

The Texans are not the Ravens.  Common get it together.

 

I don't care if the Texans were 18-0; I would rather face them than the Ravens any day!

[21isSuperman]

I just feel so bad for Manning. For so many yrs I have been defending him, but having watched how Brady played against Texans and compare that with Manning's shaky game yesterday, I for now just don't have anything to defend him on.

 

Give Peyton Belichick, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, a solid running game, and an opportunistic defense that can get turnovers, then we can see what happens.  With the exceptions of Marvin and possibly Reggie, Gronk is a better option to throw to than any player Peyton has ever had.  They are completely different players on completely different teams with completely different situations.  I strongly disagree with the statement that Brady is better than Peyton, but I would definitely agree with the statement that the Pats have built better teams than the Colts did

[tonychen]

Perhaps it was due to similar circumstances on the team's part, not on Peyton's.  I've never liked John Fox as a head coach.  I liked Dungy, but I don't think he or Caldwell were all that great.  Not only that, but it's not very often that a team puts up 35 points and still loses.  When the defense gives up 38 points to an offense led by Joe Flacco, you have some big problems.  Had Caldwell not called that timeout in 2010, we could have beaten the Jets.  Had Garcon caught the TD pass, Bethea picked off Brees, or the defense made a single stop in general in the Super Bowl game against the Saints, we could have won that.  Football is the ultimate team game, as you said.  It's hard to blame it all on Peyton when his defense gives up 38 points or he has to deal with his own head coach.

 

But why every time something fails for him? Is he just so ill-fated or he is just taking too many responsibilities? Jim Harbaugh is a much stronger coach than all those Manning had before, but why did he opt not to work with him and it ended up with all three conservative and unimaginative coaches? 14 yrs into his career it cannot be coincidence.

[tonychen]

Give Peyton Belichick, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, a solid running game, and an opportunistic defense that can get turnovers, then we can see what happens.  With the exceptions of Marvin and possibly Reggie, Gronk is a better option to throw to than any player Peyton has ever had.  They are completely different players on completely different teams with completely different situations.  I strongly disagree with the statement that Brady is better than Peyton, but I would definitely agree with the statement that the Pats have built better teams than the Colts did

 

Do you really believe Manning and BB can work together? Is BB going to give Manning 100% control on offense or he will want Manning to execute his plays and only do simple adjustments like Brady does?

 

Another point is you don't see Brady throw those erratic ints very often. He does't win improbable games as Eli Manning always does but he also doesn't give it away like Peyton. This is why he is a better playoff QB since stablity and ball security is the top priority in playoffs.

[21isSuperman]

But why every time something fails for him? Is he just so ill-fated or he is just taking too many responsibilities? Jim Harbaugh is a much stronger coach than all those Manning had before, but why did he opt not to work with him and it ended up with all three conservative and unimaginative coaches? 14 yrs into his career it cannot be coincidence.

I think stuff has failed for Peyton because he has been called upon to cover up for a lot.  He was expected to over up for a mediocre offensive line, an inconsistent running game, poor coaching, an inconsistent defense, etc.  Eventually, those things will catch up to you.  People probably notice it in the playoffs more because it is one loss and you're done.  If he loses in the regular season, people don't notice because he will probably end up with a 12+ win season.  But in the playoffs, everything is magnified because it's a shorter season.  So one loss in the playoffs is analyzed and magnified far more than one loss in the regular season even though the losses might be for the same reasons.

 

He had no voice in hiring Fox.  Dungy was brought in to fix the brutal defense we had, with hopes that he would fix the defense and Peyton would keep the offense rolling.  And Caldwell was Dungy's hand picked successor, so I'm not sure how much say Peyton had in that.  Peyton said he felt most comfortable with Denver and that's his choice.  He could have gone to San Fran, but he may not have been comfortable there running a different offense.  Harbaugh would want to run his offense and Peyton would want to run his.

[21isSuperman]

Do you really believe Manning and BB can work together? Is BB going to give Manning 100% control on offense or he will want Manning to execute his plays and only do simple adjustments like Brady does?

They have worked together at Pro Bowls.  And watch this video here:

 

Brady and Belichick are just shooting ideas off of each other.  Belichick and Peyton are both known for their incredibly high football IQ, so I think the two of them would be able to work very well together.

[Dustin]

Do you really believe Manning and BB can work together? Is BB going to give Manning 100% control on offense or he will want Manning to execute his plays and only do simple adjustments like Brady does?

 

Another point is you don't see Brady throw those erratic ints very often. He does't win improbable games as Eli Manning always does but he also doesn't give it away like Peyton. This is why he is a better playoff QB since stablity and ball security is the top priority in playoffs.

 

I doubt Belichick does anything with the offense besides install the philosophy.

[tonychen]

He had no voice in hiring Fox.  Dungy was brought in to fix the brutal defense we had, with hopes that he would fix the defense and Peyton would keep the offense rolling.  And Caldwell was Dungy's hand picked successor, so I'm not sure how much say Peyton had in that.  Peyton said he felt most comfortable with Denver and that's his choice.  He could have gone to San Fran, but he may not have been comfortable there running a different offense.  Harbaugh would want to run his offense and Peyton would want to run his.

 

Harbaugh surely wants his own scheme and it works. If Manning is really that great, do you think he wouldn't adopt to it or sit together with him and make sth. even better? For me Manning's scheme demands too many things to work on the same page and it could be too vulnerable and predictable to good defense.

[tonychen]

I doubt Belichick does anything with the offense besides install the philosophy.

 

See above. He controls everything on that team.

[Dustin]

See above. He controls everything on that team.

 

What are you talking about? Why would a HC who was a D-Coordinator his entire career call the offensive plays? 

[tonychen]

What are you talking about? Why would a HC who was a D-Coordinator his entire career call the offensive plays? 

 

He doesnt call the plays but he sits down with Brady and the OC to install the plans.

[Dustin]

He doesnt call the plays but he sits down with Brady and the OC to install the plans.

 

I'm pretty sure I said he installs the philosophy for the game.

[tonychen]

I'm pretty sure I said he installs the philosophy for the game.

 

Not only philosophy, he also prepares multiple detailed plans with both offense and defense, and makes sure they are not call off-guard

[Dustin]

he also prepares multiple detailed plans with both offense and defense

 

That's what philosophy is.

[tonychen]

That's what philosophy is.

 

To me philosophy mostly means things on the macro level, while I believe Belichick involves a lot on micro level and meanwhile have the big picture in his mind.

[Dustin]

To me philosophy mostly means things on the macro level, while I believe Belichick involves a lot on micro level and meanwhile have the big picture in his mind.

 

He instills the game plan which is what almost every coach does in the NFL, it's nothing special. If you want to say he's the best at it nobody would argue with you, but it's not like he calls the plays on the sideline and from what I see Brady does a fair amount of audibling himself. I doubt he would have a problem with Peyton doing it.

[tonychen]

He instills the game plan which is what almost every coach does in the NFL, it's nothing special. If you want to say he's the best at it nobody would argue with you, but it's not like he calls the plays on the sideline and from what I see Brady does a fair amount of audibling himself. I doubt he would have a problem with Peyton doing it.

 

I also believe had Manning been Belichick's QB they could have won 3 SBs. But could you tell me why Manning has never been linked to an outstanding coach? It's not like he did not have a chance. Jim Harbaugh is one of the best young coaches.

 

All I wanted to say in my 1st post was Manning should get some good coaches involved in his game planning to a higher level and let them give him some fresh ideas, instead of preparing and calling plays from his old playbook all by his own. He is no superman and could struggle as well. In his scheme, everything goes throw him - reading defense, telling the receivers where to go, giving OL and RB assignments. Brady's audibling is surely much simpler and I believe it must be some existing game plans. Comparing the two, Manning is like cooking from scratch while Brady is like cooking some prepared frozen meal. Manning surely looks more masterful and sometimes can be outstanding, but sometimes it could fail badly as well. Brady takes less risk and looks less interesting but is more consistent. 

[PATS16N0]

I'm sorry, but this isn't a discussion anymore.

 

At least it shouldn't be.

 

Tom Brady passed Joe Montana today and now holds the record alone for most post season wins (17) and he has done it against serious defenses, 00's Steelers, Ravens, Jets, etc.

 

Peyton Manning, on the same weekend, set the record for most post season losses.

 

Brady has 40 touchdown passes and 20 interceptions compared to Peyton's 29 touchdowns and 21 interceptions (iirc).

This despite Tom being in the league three fewer years than Peyton, and having one less play off appearance.

 

Brady has 10 playoff appearances and five Superbowl appearances.

He is the most miraculous, flukey helmet catch away from a 19-0 championship season.

 

It's just off the chain.

 

Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were equals and rivals a long, long time ago.

 

Tom Brady has since sealed that deal and by no small margin.

A 17-6 post season record, with 5 AFC Championships, is in a league of its own.

 

Brady only gets compared to Montana now.

 

Brady vrs Peyton is 6 years dated and long, long settled.

 

The regular season doesn't mean anything. AFC South (expansion division in the 00's, utterly horrible) and this years AFC West are divisions Mark Sanchez could go to the post season in (not saying Peyton is Sanchez). Those stats don't matter, because, like with the Ravens looking at Denver's  "#2 defense", good teams don't care what you've done to bad teams, or the stats you've accomulated against them.

[PATS16N0]

And for all your talk of teams, Peyton Manning had Colt teams FAR AND AWAY superior to the 2011 Patriots, which was just gaping with holes everywhere, and he didn't bring them to a Superbowl. He didn't bring teams far superior to the 2011 Patriots even near one.

[Dustin]

The regular season doesn't mean anything. AFC South (expansion division in the 00's, utterly horrible) and this years AFC West are divisions Mark Sanchez could go to the post season in (not saying Peyton is Sanchez). Those stats don't matter, because, like with the Ravens looking at Denver's  "#2 defense", good teams don't care what you've done to bad teams, or the stats you've accomulated against them.

 

Yeah because the AFC East is such an elite division right?

[PATS16N0]

You guys have Andrew Lucke now. The kid is going to be awesome. Despite ESPN's love affair with RG3, Lucke is the best rookie quarterback in the league.

 

Go with it and stop defending things that can't be defended anymore.

 

Brady has taken his play to a whole different level since the early 2000 back and forths.

 

The Brady v Manning debate was decisively settled. In every way. Stats. Rings. Records. Post season success. Style. The prolific nature of the offenses each run. Brady is just an all around vastly superior package.