33 replies to this topic

[chad72]

http://msn.foxsports...f-record-010913

 

I also bet he breaks Brees' record of consecutive games with a TD.

[Bogie]

Oh he will but don't mean he's going to be surpass Joe Cool as the greatest. No one ever will, not even Manning or Brees. That 4-0 Super Bowl record is still shining, and Montana played in an age where defenses were feared. There aren't no Ronnie Lotts or Howie Longs or Lawrence Taylor type defensive players anymore that scared the living crap out of you.

 

I don't mean that in any disrespect for Brady. if he breaks Brees record, I think it will be good. Records were made to be broken, it is just a shame they are so easy to break now. I wonder how long it will take for Favre's to start going down.

[IndyTrav]

I don't think Montana is the greatest of all time. Not even close. Top 10 probably. I think it will come down to Manning or Brady. Brady with the slight edge.

[Vance]

I don't think Montana is the greatest of all time. Not even close. Top 10 probably. I think it will come down to Manning or Brady. Brady with the slight edge.

 

Manning (Pey) does not nearly have the postseason pedigree required to be considered the greatest QB of all time. Sorry.

[IndyTrav]

Manning (Pey) does not nearly have the postseason pedigree required to be considered the greatest QB of all time. Sorry.

Post season? Arguable. Revolutionizing the position. Yes.

[mvbighead]

Manning (Pey) does not nearly have the postseason pedigree required to be considered the greatest QB of all time. Sorry.

 

Lol.  Good teams get to and win playoffs games.  There have been a number of great players (QBs included) that have not won a SB, Dan Marino is a shining example.

 

GOAT is not a term strictly held for playoff game winners.  Two of the best corners playing today may never win a SB.  There are just too many examples that refute the evidence of the playoffs having any impact on the discussion.  Sure, it's worthy of considering, but Manning has been to two and won one SB.  The plain and simple truth is that Manning was covering up a lot of the faults this team had for a long time.  That's why Jim Caldwell lasted so long as the HC.

[GrizzColt]

Those 49ers teams had it all at every position.  Joe Montana was like Phil Jackson.  He was given a loaded team and he knew what to do with them.  Manning was given the equivalent of the Pacers and won a Super Bowl.  How can you compare that?  

[GrizzColt]

I would like to say Manning revolutionized the position, but didn't Jim Kelly do almost the exact same thing in Buffalo?  Jim had a much better team, imo, but very similar.

[IndyTrav]

Those 49ers teams had it all at every position. Joe Montana was like Phil Jackson. He was given a loaded team and he knew what to do with them. Manning was given the equivalent of the Pacers and won a Super Bowl. How can you compare that?

That's how I feel.

Great QB. Greater situation. It can be argued Montana wasn't even the best player on his own team. Let alone ever.

Rice. Lott. Walsh....then you get into the good players like Taylor etc.

Then Steve young came in and just kept rocking.

[GoPats]

Montana's achievements (4-0 in Super Bowls, 11 TDs in those four games with zero picks) are pretty sick, and aren't likely to be duplicated anytime soon. A 127+ QB rating in those four games? C'mon, that's just insane!

 

(What's sometimes forgotten, though, is that he didn't fare quite as well in conference championship games. Not exactly a huge deal, but he was much more human in those contests.)

 

Brady is also closing in on Montana's record for career playoff TDs... I believe he's at 38, with Montana the record holder at 45. Different eras, so their regular-season stats are apples and oranges, but suffice to say Brady is considerably ahead there.

[GoPats]

Those 49ers teams had it all at every position.  Joe Montana was like Phil Jackson.  He was given a loaded team and he knew what to do with them.  Manning was given the equivalent of the Pacers and won a Super Bowl.  How can you compare that?  

 

I kind of think you may be applying a double standard here. Montana's teams were loaded, yes, but great QBs bring out the best in their teammates. If you look at the '06 Colts' roster, there are some potential HOF guys there... Harrison, Wayne, Glenn, Manning of course... and it's not like Indy's defense was along for the ride that postseason. They carried the Colts through the first two rounds.

 

This isn't intended to discredit Manning, I'm just pointing out that no man does it all by himself, ever. Not in football.

[bayone]

http://msn.foxsports...f-record-010913

 

I also bet he breaks Brees' record of consecutive games with a TD.

 

I cant see how he wont break brees record, then again I couldn't believe Brees got stopped

 

nothing against them for breaking UInitas record, but I just think as was a 12 game season, he did it over a 5 year period, often playing hurt where he would have been removed today , at a time when the RB was the featured player ,  I find the original still at this point in time  the most remarkable

 

& yes I do have a Unitas Bias as grew up with his playing from year one

 

all things considered its a team sport and all records depend on entire team

 

Good Luck Tom

[GoPats]

I cant see how he wont break brees record, then again I couldn't believe Brees got stopped

 

nothing against them for breaking UInitas record, but I just think as was a 12 game season, he did it over a 5 year period, often playing hurt where he would have been removed today , at a time when the RB was the featured player ,  I find the original still at this point in time  the most remarkable

 

Yup, I know it can't happen, but it almost feels like those old-timey records should be "adjusted" to reflect the modern version of the game!

 

I read a great quote about Unitas recently. I'm paraphrasing, but something like, "You could argue against Unitas being the greatest QB ever, but it would be very difficult to argue that he wasn't the most important QB ever." Just in terms of popularizing the passing game and changing the philosophy of the offense.

 

Crazy thing is, it almost all ended for him before it even began. What a career though.

[bayone]

Yup, I know it can't happen, but it almost feels like those old-timey records should be "adjusted" to reflect the modern version of the game!

 

I read a great quote about Unitas recently. I'm paraphrasing, but something like, "You could argue against Unitas being the greatest QB ever, but it would be very difficult to argue that he wasn't the most important QB ever." Just in terms of popularizing the passing game and changing the philosophy of the offense.

 

Crazy thing is, it almost all ended for him before it even began. What a career though.

I edited in and u may have missed it in quick response to me

 

 & yes I do have a Unitas Bias as grew up with his playing from year one

 

all things considered its a team sport and all records depend on entire team

 

Good Luck Tom

[BLOODontheTRACKS]

Joe Montana was the luckiest football player ever.....The Giants picked Phil Simms before Bill Walsh could. Walsh and the west coast offense forever changed football IMO and those two things had a far greater impact on the 49ers than Montana. Now the myth lovers can rip me to shreds.....

[oldunclemark]

I don't think Montana is the greatest of all time. Not even close. Top 10 probably. I think it will come down to Manning or Brady. Brady with the slight edge.


I would add Johnny Unitas, Trav....

and Otto Graham...10 title games (7-3 record) 114-20 overall (just 20 losses in 10 years)
No one will ever do that again..

[ViriLudant]

I don't think Montana is the greatest of all time. Not even close. Top 10 probably. I think it will come down to Manning or Brady. Brady with the slight edge.

That's not even close.

Montana may be the greatest QB of all time based on his game-winning abilities. He handled pressure better than any QB in NFL history.

Or does 4-0 in SUPERBOWLS mean nothing to you?

[Vance]

Lol.  Good teams get to and win playoffs games.  There have been a number of great players (QBs included) that have not won a SB, Dan Marino is a shining example.

 

GOAT is not a term strictly held for playoff game winners.  Two of the best corners playing today may never win a SB.  There are just too many examples that refute the evidence of the playoffs having any impact on the discussion.  Sure, it's worthy of considering, but Manning has been to two and won one SB.  The plain and simple truth is that Manning was covering up a lot of the faults this team had for a long time.  That's why Jim Caldwell lasted so long as the HC.

 

Your first statement says it all. He has lost more playoff games than he's won. I didn't mention anything about super bowls. 

[Flying Elvis]

Playoff Games started
Brett Favre 24
Joe Montana 23
Tom Brady 22
John Elway 21
Terry Bradshaw 19
Peyton Manning 19
Dan Marino 18
Roger Staubach 17
Jim Kelly 17
Donovan McNabb 16

Playoff Wins
Joe Montana 16
Tom Brady 16
John Elway 14
Terry Bradshaw 14
Brett Favre 13
Roger Staubach 11
Troy Aikman 11
Ben Roethlisberger 10
Peyton Manning 9
Jim Kelly 9

Playoff Losses
Brett Favre 11
Peyton Manning 10
Dan Marino 10
Jim Kelly 8
Joe Montana 7
John Elway 7
Donovan McNabb 7
Warren Moon 7
Tom Brady 6
Roger Staubach 6

Playoff Win Percentage (Min 10 games)
Bart Starr 9 1 .900
Jim Plunkett 8 2 .800
Terry Bradshaw 14 5 .737
Troy Aikman 11 4 .733
Tom Brady 16 6 .727
Eli Manning 8 3 .727
Ben Roethlisberger 10 4 .714
Joe Montana 16 7 .696
Kurt Warner 9 4 .692
John Elway 14 7 .667

[chad72]

Elway's 14-7 record, it was 7-7 prior to his last 2 SB runs.

 

He won the SB in 1997 as a wild card, and in 1998 with a bye week.

 

One just has to wait till a career is over to examine the body of work.

 

Elway did carry less talented teams to the SB to go 0-3 prior to getting a running game and D to win his last 2.

[IndyTrav]

That's not even close.

Montana may be the greatest QB of all time based on his game-winning abilities. He handled pressure better than any QB in NFL history.

Or does 4-0 in SUPERBOWLS mean nothing to you?

Sure winning SBs means something to me. To an extent. It's not the end all be all. If that's the case Bradshaw is 2.

I just can't says he's the best ever when I feel he wasn't even the best player on his own team.

[Vance]

Sure winning SBs means something to me. To an extent. It's not the end all be all. If that's the case Bradshaw is 2.

I just can't says he's the best ever when I feel he wasn't even the best player on his own team.

 

We're talking about the greatest QB...not the greatest player. 

[IndyTrav]

We're talking about the greatest QB...not the greatest player.

Ya. And it's hard to say Montana is the greatest ever mostly because of his SBs when he had other arguable greatest evers at other key spots on those very same SB teams.

Montana was great. No doubt about it. But I can't say he's the best ever.

[RGIII]

Post season? Arguable. Revolutionizing the position. Yes.

 

What exactly did Peyton revolutionize?  He plays the game at a very high level and is perhaps the game's greatest perfectionist... but he's not brought much new to the table.  There are VERY few quarterbacks who can be said to have had that effect on the game, it's a small percentage of even elite QBs who qualify.

[jvan1973]

What exactly did Peyton revolutionize? He plays the game at a very high level and is perhaps the game's greatest perfectionist... but he's not brought much new to the table. There are VERY few quarterbacks who can be said to have had that effect on the game, it's a small percentage of even elite QBs who qualify.

How many qb's call their game from the LOS? Nobody does what Peyton does, so i wouldn't say he revolutionized the position. He just plays it on a different level

[Dustin]

What exactly did Peyton revolutionize?  He plays the game at a very high level and is perhaps the game's greatest perfectionist... but he's not brought much new to the table.  There are VERY few quarterbacks who can be said to have had that effect on the game, it's a small percentage of even elite QBs who qualify.

 

Seriously? How many QBs were drafted #1 overall before Peyton? 3. How many were drafted #1 after Peyton? 10. His success led is what led to the outbreak of QBs being the be all end all of offenses and the "win now" mantra.

 

Peyton made the calling of audibles a necessity for QBs. Every QB wants to read defenses like Peyton read defenses. All of them want to control that Peyton had. Most QBs have 3 plays to choose from on any given down but Peyton had control of the entire offensive playbook and was basically the offensive coordinator. 

 

Manning perfected the no-huddle offense to the point that it became standard practice to use in the NFL outside of the 2 minute drill.

 

He has had more control of an offense than almost any player of the Super Bowl era and now you see QBs like Brees, Ryan, Rodgers, and Luck given the whole playbook to choose plays from during any given play.

 

On top of all that he led the NFL into the passing era. He's had rules changed especially for him see: AFC Championship game 2004(?)

 

Saying he brought nothing new to the table is a total insult to what he has accomplished in the NFL.

[BLOODontheTRACKS]

That's not even close.Montana may be the greatest QB of all time based on his game-winning abilities. He handled pressure better than any QB in NFL history.Or does 4-0 in SUPERBOWLS mean nothing to you?

Bradshaw has four too, but people seem to forget that when using the "rings" argument

[the cardinal]

How many qb's call their game from the LOS? Nobody does what Peyton does, so i wouldn't say he revolutionized the position. He just plays it on a different level

Tons. QBs have been doing that for ages... For instance, Jim Kelly was running the K-Gun when Peyton was still in middle school. It's nothing new or revolutionary.

[GoPats]

No offense to any posters in particular, but a lot of diehard Manning fans seem to think that the history of the NFL started in 1998.

 

He's been an influential player but - contrary to what you may read around this message board - audibles did, indeed, exist prior to '98, and quarterbacks have been reading defenses since before most of us were born. And the no-huddle, while it's pretty popular today, goes way back, and was mostly popularized by the Bills back in their SB days.

 

Can't stress enough, this is not a knock on Manning, nor am I trying to discredit him. He's a Hall of Fame player. The hero worship just gets a little silly sometimes, and saying something over and over again doesn't make it true.

 

The K-Gun, the Run and Shoot, etc-etc...

 

One could make a case for Manning impacting some of the rules and the enforcement of them, but that's also come with a downside.

[mvbighead]

Your first statement says it all. He has lost more playoff games than he's won. I didn't mention anything about super bowls. 

 

My first statement sure does.  Playoff games are won by good teams.

 

The whole playoff argument, IMO, is weak.  The Colts defense gave up some pretty pathetic yardage the year Manning won the SB.  We reach the playoffs, and they shut down one of the league's leading rushers.  Manning's SB win can largely be attributed to the Colts defense finally waking up.  SB wins and playoff wins are great, and more important than regular season wins, but the reality is you are playing games against the leagues best competition.

 

Also, in looking at the lists above, you'll see that a majority of those with a high win percentage were on teams with great defenses.  Bill B had one heck of a defense for quite some time, along with one heck of a kicker.  As you can see over the past few years, his defense has regressed, and as a result, their playoff wins were harder, and the eventually lost in the SB.  Good, well rounded teams go all the way.  But the key in all of this, is the word team.

 

That's what makes this sport so much better than nearly any other.  The team aspect is that much more important.

[JerodMayo51]

 That 4-0 Super Bowl record is still shining, and Montana played in an age where defenses were feared. There aren't no Ronnie Lotts or Howie Longs or Lawrence Taylor type defensive players anymore that scared the living crap out of you.

 

 

Montana also played in an uncapped era when they could keep all of their hall of famers on both sides of the ball for years and years.  In this era, the second a team goes to the SB they're roster, front office and coaching staff are vultured by the rest of the league.  That makes a huge different and is a big part of why he was 4-0, because his team was so dominant.. but I think Joe Montana was the best there ever was and so far it looks like he will remain the best there ever will be until someone comes along and proves otherwise.  Manning and Brady are in a close 2nd to him,

[-JJ-]

Montana also played in an uncapped era when they could keep all of their hall of famers on both sides of the ball for years and years.  In this era, the second a team goes to the SB they're roster, front office and coaching staff are vultured by the rest of the league.  That makes a huge different and is a big part of why he was 4-0, because his team was so dominant.. but I think Joe Montana was the best there ever was and so far it looks like he will remain the best there ever will be until someone comes along and proves otherwise.  Manning and Brady are in a close 2nd to him,

yep I've always said the precap era is huge. Like the determining factor.

[ViriLudant]

How many qb's call their game from the LOS? Nobody does what Peyton does, so i wouldn't say he revolutionized the position. He just plays it on a different level

false. He always had a great OC, or are we just going to ignore that?

Peyton audibles well; so do many other QBs.

[JerodMayo51]

false. He always had a great OC, or are we just going to ignore that?

Peyton audibles well; so do many other QBs.

 

Peyton actually had the same offensive coordinator for the majority of his professional career, a luxury that I wish Brady had.  Brady went through offensive coordinators and wide receivers like contestants at a chili eating contest go through underwear.  Having that consistent and stable atmosphere im sure was beneficial to Manning. 

 

This idea that Manning is the only one that goes to the line of scrimmage and audibles or calls his own plays is ridiculous.  Lots of QBs around the league, once they've been in the same system for a few years, do this.  Heck, Brady broke the record this year for his No-Huddle attack, he ran it so fast other teams were commenting on it all year how they never had any time to even get set as a defense because Brady was running the no huddle so fast, he managed to get like 92 plays off in 1 game. 

 

 

Again, this is not a skill set that is unique to Manning.