AP better win the MVP and comeback player awards

[Superman]

Tell you what: prove to me that I'm wrong.

You can do that by showing me the trades that the Colts made last season, the free agents that they brought in to help their team win, etc.

Show me the FO's attempts to win at all costs in 2011.

Kerry Collins? A guy who came out of retirement to play? THAT was their big signing?

Please.

 

The moves the Colts made in the offseason of 2011 are pretty much the same moves they made every offseason under Bill Polian and Jim Caldwell. The difference is that Manning wound up not being able to get back on the field according to the anticipated time frame. The team was never known for flashy offseason moves, never spent significant resources on backup quarterbacks, and was up against the cap. What kind of moves are you looking for?

[John Dee]

If it's a matter of "who means more to who?   Andrew Luck is the run away winner.

 

Washington...    RG3, Cousins...    no drop off

Denver            Tebow, playoff team last season

Minny             a close second...    hehe  But he's not a QB.

GB                They won a SB a couple of years ago...     Let someone else bask in the glory.

NY Giants..    oh they aren't invited to the party this year....    and ELI sucked most of the year.

NE                They win with whoever suits up

ATL              Matty Ice needs to stop going one and done

SF.              Coach can't win the award

Balt               do they have a candidate?

Seattle             Team protected Wilson early ....   

Cincy                  Redheads aren't allowed to win

Houston..              Schaub?   ..    heheeheee,

I love Peyton and he will forever be my guy but what AP have done this year is amazing..he literally put that team in his back and carried them to the playoffs..9 yds of breaking the record..that has got to hurt a little smh..

[MAC]

Seriously? You REALLY think that the Colts' three-season progression from 10-6 to 2-14 and now to 11-5 doesn't indicate that the entire organization basically threw in the towel last year sometime in September?

 

C'mon dude. Viri's not reaching, you are!

Tell you what: prove to me that I'm wrong.

You can do that by showing me the trades that the Colts made last season, the free agents that they brought in to help their team win, etc.

Show me the FO's attempts to win at all costs in 2011.

Kerry Collins? A guy who came out of retirement to play? THAT was their big signing?

Please.

You're right in the sense that they didn't panic and trade the future away or blow the salary cap for the next five years in a vain effort to salvage a few more wins in a lost season. In this era in the NFL, when your franchise QB goes down, the season is over. In that respect they did exactly what any rational fan would want them to do - make the best of it while taking the opportunity to evaluate your young talent for next year. If you can salvage some pride and entertain the fans in the process that's fantastic, but if you aren't competing for the playoffs than the entire perspective changes.

 

However as Patriot fans I take the implication of your words as more like: "are you kidding me, EVERYONE knows that the Colts intentionally lost as many ball games as possible last year in an unethical/immoral/illegal plan to secure Andrew Luck".  I beg to differ. Do you have any idea how ridiculous and insulting that suggestion is?

 

I watched every painful minute of every miserable game last year, and aside from the demoralizing second half of the Saints loss the players and coaches gave it their all to the bitter end. Far from overtly trying to get the number one pick - which they richly deserved - they ALMOST won themselves out of the bottom spot with a couple of victories which were every bit as surprising and uplifting as this years selections have been. As others here have expressed, their is a VAST difference between what Jim Irsay and the fans may recognize as being in the teams long term best interests, and what the professionals whose lively-hoods are at stake chose to do on a daily basis. And your reading the words of someone who spent all of 1997 rooting hard for the Colts to lose as many games as possible.

 

Whatever you think of Jim Caldwell - and many here don't think much, but I have considerable respect for the man  - I doubt that he's ever done an unethical thing in his life. So perhaps we're just having a difference of perspective, because it's pretty obvious that Belichick can't be held to the same standard.

[ColtsBlueFL]

The Colts gave up on the season last year, so I don't really buy into the whole +/- win differential, and its not just because of Andrew Luck, that whole team has been playing better. I believe the team completely gave up last season and you could see it in their play on the field.

 

 

Wrong!  Prove your assertion, or it is just a plain old unsupported opinion offered up by an opposing teams fan.

 

I saw a team that thought Peyton would/could come back, and then  lost Collins to concussion, and later Painter to ineptitude.  By the time Orlovsky was ready with the playbook , the season was almost gone.  But Dan O. and the Colts swiped 2 W's at the end any way.  I have articles to support my position... you ready to do battle with proving your claim?

[ColtsBlueFL]

Tell you what: prove to me that I'm wrong.

You can do that by showing me the trades that the Colts made last season, the free agents that they brought in to help their team win, etc.

Show me the FO's attempts to win at all costs in 2011.

Kerry Collins? A guy who came out of retirement to play? THAT was their big signing?

Please.

 

Wrong-O buddy. It is upon YOU to prove your claim right!  Not us to prove it wrong... Name the players they should have brought in.  What was the cap room?  What should the contract(s) for named players  have been for?  What was their projected win value?  If you can't name the players, contract numbers, and cap situation, and win increase expected, then you, sir,  are just blowing hot air.

 

We got Orlovsky back on squad when Collins went down, but he was't o scheme / playbook ready until Painter had already mangled the mid season.  Dan O, the QB who lost 16 straight games with the Lions, managed to steal 2 w's late in the year.  Players were trying but because they plain sucked got cut. Most still don't have NFL jobs because of that performance. Front office staff get kick in the can too.  Irsay blew up the franchise and rebuilt it again in one off season, and people cry foul.  Give me a break.

[GoPats]

Too many responses to my earlier post to quote anyone specifically, but there is a lot of crazy denial going on here. The notion that the Colts quit in 2011, or - worse - had no heart to win, is not something that a few fans of other teams created in our heads.

 

If you're still incredulous, google "Colts tank 2011 season" and see what's out there. Kravitz, Florio (who I don't care for, but agree with him on this one)... plenty of media people put it out there.

 

I'm not crying foul or saying that it was the wrong thing to do. I think what basically happened is that Indy had no viable, NFL-caliber backup QB on the roster. Couple that with complete ineptitude in the coaching ranks, and you've got the perfect recipe for 2-14.

 

I'm not even sure it was a conscious, deliberate decision - at least not to start with. But once it became apparent that Manning was not coming back, it's almost as though the entire organization just threw in the towel, emotionally speaking, on 2011. When it later became obvious that Manning would not be back in Indy, it was all about the transition to Andrew Luck.

 

I've said this before. Long-time Colts fans, just like long-time Patriots fans, know what a 2-win team truly looks like. Both of our franchises languished in the basement of the NFL for a good long time. If you're 40 or older, you know what I'm talking about. So, just speaking honestly, I am not at all surprised to see the Colts in the playoffs with their rookie QB leading the way.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I don't think that the team(players) quit in many if any games, maybe the New Orleans debacle, but the players kept fighting for the most part.

 

With that said, the coaching staff did nothing till late in the season when they switched to Orlovsky and ran a simple basic offense.

 

When Manning went under the knife the 2nd time the Manning offensive system should have been shelved. Signing Kerry Collins some can argue is a panic move, but it is still a move. The problem was having him running Manning's offense with a week to 10 days to grasp it, which blew Polian's foolish Kerry can grasp any offense conceptually in 48hours, or whatever it was that he was spewing.  

 

Obviously with Collins getting hurt they turned to Painter who while having more time from a knowledge point of view, he did not have the skill set to run the Manning offense. He didn't have the skill set to be on a roster in my opinion, but if you are going to play him, then at least attempt to put him in a position to have some success outside of Garcon breaking a few short throws for long gains/touchdowns. 

 

So I place blame on the losing record to Peyton Manning's injury. But I put the embarrassing 2-14 record on the ineptitude of the Jim Caldwell,  and Clyde Christensen. Coyer gets his share of the blame, and if there were instructions to not alter the offense from Polian, then more of the blame gets shifted to him. 

 

I've said before that it seems early on Jim Irsay was given the misinformation that Peyton would never play again. At that point he became fassinated with Andrew Luck, and I don't think the team pulled out all stops to win games. If so, the offense would have been converted to your goal line package, and expanded. Which you would start off with the I formation and your various running plays, you then add the 3wr set, the routes/names/calls etc stay the same there isn't an issue there, but it is a pretty easy concept to accomplish.

 

Like go-pats said last year wasn't your traditional 2 win team, not with the talent that was on the team. If the offense would have been halfway competent, meaning, higher 3rd down conversions, better completion %, then the defense would've been placed in a better position, which is one way the improved offense has helped the defense out this year. The same can be said for Denver, but that is for another thread.

 

I won't agree that the team(players) threw away the season. Painter was trying his best, he just wasn't put into a situation that he could succeed. He and Collins both would have performed better in a different system. The team would have had 5-6 wins.

 

As others have pointed out there were a number of games lost within 6-7-8 points and with better quarterback play some of those games would have been in the win column.

 

In the preseason, there were tons of expectations threads, and some were throwing out 3k passing yards, 15, td's, and such, heck those #'s were achieved last year, and I was mocked for having high expectations of both the team and a #1 QB. With competent QB this team would be a playoff team. With Manning, I felt they would be a contender just as Denver is...

 

So I won't buy that the team tanked the season, but I also won't say that they(Polian/Caldwell/Christensen/Coyer/Irsay) pulled out every stop or did the things to prevent the horrendous 2-14 season.   A competent coaching staff would have prevented that.   

[GoPats]

Like go-pats said last year wasn't your traditional 2 win team, not with the talent that was on the team. If the offense would have been halfway competent, meaning, higher 3rd down conversions, better completion %, then the defense would've been placed in a better position, which is one way the improved offense has helped the defense out this year. The same can be said for Denver, but that is for another thread.

 

So I won't buy that the team tanked the season, but I also won't say that they(Polian/Caldwell/Christensen/Coyer/Irsay) pulled out every stop or did the things to prevent the horrendous 2-14 season.   A competent coaching staff would have prevented that.   

 

That was all I've really been trying to say. Good post.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Too many responses to my earlier post to quote anyone specifically, but there is a lot of crazy denial going on here. The notion that the Colts quit in 2011, or - worse - had no heart to win, is not something that a few fans of other teams created in our heads.

 

If you're still incredulous, google "Colts tank 2011 season" and see what's out there. Kravitz, Florio (who I don't care for, but agree with him on this one)... plenty of media people put it out there.

 

I googled that and this came up straight away-

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/18/colts-wont-be-tanking-to-get-andrew-luck/

http://www.indystar.com/article/20111009/SPORTS03/110090360/Tank-season-No-way-Colts-insist

 

The rest of the opinion pieces just 'think' Colts are doing it.  No evidence at all to support their claim or refute the Colts public position.  Not a shred. They didn't have one, neither do any of you.  Just wishful bloviating.

 

I'm not crying foul or saying that it was the wrong thing to do. I think what basically happened is that Indy had no viable, NFL-caliber backup QB on the roster. Couple that with complete ineptitude in the coaching ranks, and you've got the perfect recipe for 2-14.

 

More hogwash.  Painter after his Junior year was slated as a first or second round selection.  His injury and poor play his Senior year dropped his value to round 5.  Polian got him in the 6th round. Looked like value for a backup in place of Sorgi.  Painter, for all intents and purposes, was as qualified to be a viable backup as anybody at that time.  When the rubber met the road (real games in NFL), only then did it become apparent he probably just didn't have what it takes to get the job done.

 

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1264

http://walterfootball.com/pro2009cpainter.php

 

We also got Dan Orlovsky on roster when Collins went IR for concussion.  But it took weeks for him to get the playbook.  Dan got us the wins when he finally got in, and his 'adjusted' playbook schemes.

 

The big mistake was Kerry Collins to begin with-

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/kerry-collins-over-curtis-painter-color-reggie-wayne-unimpressed?urn=nfl,wp5814

 

That was done before Peyton had his 3rd (or 4th, whatever) surgery, so it wasn't clear  he was out for the majority/whole season yet.

 

I'm not even sure it was a conscious, deliberate decision - at least not to start with. But once it became apparent that Manning was not coming back, it's almost as though the entire organization just threw in the towel, emotionally speaking, on 2011. When it later became obvious that Manning would not be back in Indy, it was all about the transition to Andrew Luck.

 

It's an emotional game.  This totally revamped team with journey vets an a bunch of rookies clicked together on a Chuckstrong vision to an 11 - 5 season.

 

Certainly, knowing your super star field general (P. Manning is out for an uncertain amount of time) saps that same emotional well.  Of course, some mistake that for plain giving up.  I call it trying, but knowing you are not confident it will be enough anyway without your star player helping out.

 

I've said this before. Long-time Colts fans, just like long-time Patriots fans, know what a 2-win team truly looks like. Both of our franchises languished in the basement of the NFL for a good long time. If you're 40 or older, you know what I'm talking about. So, just speaking honestly, I am not at all surprised to see the Colts in the playoffs with their rookie QB leading the way.

 

Two win teams are generally average to below average in talent and have few Super Stars.  Or are too dependent on a Super Star.  Here is a quote from Ray Lewis-

 

""You can put in whatever piece you want with 18, 18 will make it work; all he says is just find your way open, I'll get the ball there. And that's where the Reggie Wayne's, the Dallas Clark's, the Marvin Harrison's; that's how dominant he is. If you take him out of the game, no disrespect to nobody else on the Colts, but you make them a very below-average ball club."

 

From here-

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d81bdf64c/Top-100-Peyton-Manning

 

He didn't say take him out and put in the worst QB you can find and Colts are very below average,  I infer he means even with an average QB, Colts are still very below average.  Witha below average QB?  Pffft...   Very, very,very? below average?  2 win type stuff?  Besides, if Orlovsky could have gotten the revamped playbook down earlier in the season, we could have had more W's.  Timing...

 

Even the defense was built around protecting the leads Peyton was to obtain, not coming from behind.  Even in 2010, we showed signs of this team becoming poor, even with Peyton at the helm.  The wheels were coming off, and most of us saw it coming.  But nobody expected the sudden loss of Peyton on top of it all. The straw that broke the camels back.

 

Irsay snagged a few key pieces and then blew up the car where the wheels were falling off, and built a new car and plugged his prized pieces onto it.  It worked quite well.  We had to get used to a ton of new names, and new O and D formations, but it's working out quite well for us - players and fans.   :thmsup:

[GoPats]

I googled that and this came up straight away-

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/18/colts-wont-be-tanking-to-get-andrew-luck/

http://www.indystar.com/article/20111009/SPORTS03/110090360/Tank-season-No-way-Colts-insist

 

The rest of the opinion pieces just 'think' Colts are doing it.  No evidence at all to support their claim or refute the Colts public position.  Not a shred. They didn't have one, neither do any of you.  Just wishful bloviating.

 

 

More hogwash.  Painter after his Junior year was slated as a first or second round selection.  His injury and poor play his Senior year dropped his value to round 5.  Polian got him in the 6th round. Looked like value for a backup in place of Sorgi.  Painter, for all intents and purposes, was as qualified to be a viable backup as anybody at that time.  When the rubber met the road (real games in NFL), only then did it become apparent he probably just didn't have what it takes to get the job done.

 

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1264

http://walterfootball.com/pro2009cpainter.php

 

We also got Dan Orlovsky on roster when Collins went IR for concussion.  But it took weeks for him to get the playbook.  Dan got us the wins when he finally got in, and his 'adjusted' playbook schemes.

 

The big mistake was Kerry Collins to begin with-

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/kerry-collins-over-curtis-painter-color-reggie-wayne-unimpressed?urn=nfl,wp5814

 

That was done before Peyton had his 3rd (or 4th, whatever) surgery, so it wasn't clear  he was out for the majority/whole season yet.

 

 

It's an emotional game.  This totally revamped team with journey vets an a bunch of rookies clicked together on a Chuckstrong vision to an 11 - 5 season.

 

Certainly, knowing your super star field general (P. Manning is out for an uncertain amount of time) saps that same emotional well.  Of course, some mistake that for plain giving up.  I call it trying, but knowing you are not confident it will be enough anyway without your star player helping out.

 

 

Two win teams are generally average in talent and have few Super Stars.  Or are too dependent on a Super Star.  Here is a quote from Ray Lewis-

 

""You can put in whatever piece you want with 18, 18 will make it work; all he says is just find your way open, I'll get the ball there. And that's where the Reggie Wayne's, the Dallas Clark's, the Marvin Harrison's; that's how dominant he is. If you take him out of the game, no disrespect to nobody else on the Colts, but you make them a very below-average ball club."

 

From here-

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d81bdf64c/Top-100-Peyton-Manning

 

Even the defense was built around protecting the leads Peyton was to obtain, not coming from behind.  Even in 2010, we showed signs of this team becoming poor, even with Peyton at the helm.  The wheels were coming off, and most of us saw it coming.  But nobody expected the sudden loss of Peyton on top of it all. The straw that broke the camels back.

 

Irsay snagged a few key pieces and then blew up the car where the wheels were falling off, and built a new car and plugged his prized pieces onto it.  It worked quite well.  We had to get used to a ton of new names, and new O and D formations, but it's working out quite well for us - players and fans.   :thmsup:

 

 

So my post is "hogwash?"

 

This topic is purely a matter of opinion and speculation. You cannot "prove" that the Colts were truly a 2-14 caliber type-of-team any more than I can "prove" that they were better than their record. All I've said here is that it's a fairly prevalent notion that at some point during 2011, the Colts starting looking like they were not all that interested, at all levels of the organization, in righting the ship. They didn't go out and intentionally start turning the ball over or anything like that, but at the same time, every football fan in the country could see that they weren't exactly fighting and clawing their way out of it.

 

Interesting post by you though. I think I understand where it's coming from now. :clap:

[ColtsBlueFL]

So my post is "hogwash?"

 

This topic is purely a matter of opinion and speculation. You cannot "prove" that the Colts were truly a 2-14 caliber type-of-team any more than I can "prove" that they were better than their record. All I've said here is that it's a fairly prevalent notion that at some point during 2011, the Colts starting looking like they were not all that interested, at all levels of the organization, in righting the ship. They didn't go out and intentionally start turning the ball over or anything like that, but at the same time, every football fan in the country could see that they weren't exactly fighting and clawing their way out of it.

 

Interesting post by you though. I think I understand where it's coming from now. :clap:

 

Just your assessment that we tanked it and Painter wasn't a NFL caliber QB (as it stood when he was untested as a starter).

Those are mighty big claims, "tanking it".  It would be nice for people to back up such strong words, in the face of evidence against it.  I have proof the Colts FO and players said they weren't tanking it.  

 

Here's another for you-

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/12/30/week-17/index.html

 

So if it is only speculation and opinion that we tanked it, I want to show that it appears misguided, or your changing the definition.  I've posted articles that deny your claims, so what am I supposed to think?

[jvan1973]

So my post is "hogwash?"

This topic is purely a matter of opinion and speculation. You cannot "prove" that the Colts were truly a 2-14 caliber type-of-team any more than I can "prove" that they were better than their record. All I've said here is that it's a fairly prevalent notion that at some point during 2011, the Colts starting looking like they were not all that interested, at all levels of the organization, in righting the ship. They didn't go out and intentionally start turning the ball over or anything like that, but at the same time, every football fan in the country could see that they weren't exactly fighting and clawing their way out of it.

Interesting post by you though. I think I understand where it's coming from now. :clap:

Don't let the fact that the colts won two of their last three stand in the way of this absurd opinion

[BleedingBlue]

I don't think that the team(players) quit in many if any games, maybe the New Orleans debacle, but the players kept fighting for the most part.

 

With that said, the coaching staff did nothing till late in the season when they switched to Orlovsky and ran a simple basic offense.

 

When Manning went under the knife the 2nd time the Manning offensive system should have been shelved. Signing Kerry Collins some can argue is a panic move, but it is still a move. The problem was having him running Manning's offense with a week to 10 days to grasp it, which blew Polian's foolish Kerry can grasp any offense conceptually in 48hours, or whatever it was that he was spewing.  

 

Obviously with Collins getting hurt they turned to Painter who while having more time from a knowledge point of view, he did not have the skill set to run the Manning offense. He didn't have the skill set to be on a roster in my opinion, but if you are going to play him, then at least attempt to put him in a position to have some success outside of Garcon breaking a few short throws for long gains/touchdowns. 

 

So I place blame on the losing record to Peyton Manning's injury. But I put the embarrassing 2-14 record on the ineptitude of the Jim Caldwell,  and Clyde Christensen. Coyer gets his share of the blame, and if there were instructions to not alter the offense from Polian, then more of the blame gets shifted to him. 

 

I've said before that it seems early on Jim Irsay was given the misinformation that Peyton would never play again. At that point he became fassinated with Andrew Luck, and I don't think the team pulled out all stops to win games. If so, the offense would have been converted to your goal line package, and expanded. Which you would start off with the I formation and your various running plays, you then add the 3wr set, the routes/names/calls etc stay the same there isn't an issue there, but it is a pretty easy concept to accomplish.

 

Like go-pats said last year wasn't your traditional 2 win team, not with the talent that was on the team. If the offense would have been halfway competent, meaning, higher 3rd down conversions, better completion %, then the defense would've been placed in a better position, which is one way the improved offense has helped the defense out this year. The same can be said for Denver, but that is for another thread.

 

I won't agree that the team(players) threw away the season. Painter was trying his best, he just wasn't put into a situation that he could succeed. He and Collins both would have performed better in a different system. The team would have had 5-6 wins.

 

As others have pointed out there were a number of games lost within 6-7-8 points and with better quarterback play some of those games would have been in the win column.

 

In the preseason, there were tons of expectations threads, and some were throwing out 3k passing yards, 15, td's, and such, heck those #'s were achieved last year, and I was mocked for having high expectations of both the team and a #1 QB. With competent QB this team would be a playoff team. With Manning, I felt they would be a contender just as Denver is...

 

So I won't buy that the team tanked the season, but I also won't say that they(Polian/Caldwell/Christensen/Coyer/Irsay) pulled out every stop or did the things to prevent the horrendous 2-14 season.   A competent coaching staff would have prevented that.   

^this.

Dont forget Jim's dad let Elway get away. One thing is for sure is that Jim knows how to land a Franchise QB and I think he will do anything to make sure the next Elway doesn't get away.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Don't let the fact that the colts won two of their last three stand in the way of this absurd opinion

 

And if We had picked MJD instead of Addai in the draft, we would have won all 3 .   ;)

 

 

I would never do something out of normal practice that makes me look bad but helps the company... then get fired for doing so.  Similarly, players aren't wired to think about taking plays off to let the team get draft picks that will likely take their job, or the players get cut for taking plays off.

 

I blame the fact the lost time due to Kerry Collins coming in.  If Painter would have started, and Dan O. brought back in immediately to learn a simplifed playbook, instead of Collins, we likely would have won more games. Dan O. would have been ready sooner and maybe gotten a couple more W's.

[JerodMayo51]

There is still sanity in this world!!  Here is from a Greg Rosenthal article

 

 

I don't want to live in a world where Shaun Alexander owns an MVP award and Adrian Peterson does not. I don't want to live in a world where one of the all-time great running backs has an all-time great season and does not win the award. This isn't about lifetime achievement. This is about 2012. No player was better or meant more over the course of the season than ...

 

 

1. Adrian Peterson, Minnesota Vikings

Peterson hit the top spot on my weekly MVP rankings for the first time last week. I made his MVP case then, and only an awful Week 17 performance would have knocked him out of the top spot. Instead, he racked up 199 rushing yards in a must-win game to drag an inferior team to the playoffs. He dragged a lousy offense to 37 points. Peteson led the NFL in yards from scrimmage by 350 yards. There's nothing more that Peterson could do. That it happened in the season after Peterson tore his ACL makes it a remarkable story, but this season is deserving of the award regardless.

 

 

2. Tom Brady, New England Patriots

What a sneaky awesome season by Brady. His team led the NFL in points and yards by a huge margin. He nearly threw for 5,000 yards again and only had eight interceptions. He gets the ever-so-slight edge over Peyton Manning because he outplayed Manning head to head.

Manning will get votes for MVP and they are deserving. But it's strange that we give Manning a total pass for his biggest games of the year against the Atlanta Falcons, Houston Texans and Patriots. Yes, it was early before Manning had hit full stride. But those games count. When you are trying to separate two legendary quarterbacks, something has to break the tie.

 

 

3. Peyton Manning, Denver Broncos

Manning was good right away, great by midseason, and keeps getting better. The Broncos have added some routes in recent weeks that rely on his arm strength even more, and he's handled it so well. He's made all the players around him better. Manning leads the NFL in QBR and completion percentage.

It's not hard to argue Manning was better this year than his final year or two with the Indianapolis Colts. No one saw that coming. He'll get a lot of MVP votes and might just win the award. He's not my pick, but he's certainly not a bad pick. I just worry some voters are voting for the story.

[JerodMayo51]

Don't let the fact that the colts won two of their last three stand in the way of this absurd opinion

 

 

Yea, once they secured the 1st pick in the draft they actually showed some effort and won some games. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Yea, once they secured the 1st pick in the draft they actually showed some effort and won some games. 

 

Nice try.  Colts won those two games and were tied with the Rams at 2-13 going into the last game at Jacksonville.  And it has always been MJD's personal goal to make Colts/Polian pay for bypassing him in the draft to take Joseph Addai.  When we finally do beat the Jags/MJD combo, anytime-anywhere, it is hard earned victory.  And what bad protocol to lay down like an injured animal for a Division foe. Didn't happen.  We just got beat.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1006356-colts-vs-jaguars-5-things-we-learned-from-indianapoliss-19-13-loss/page/6

[jvan1973]

Yea, once they secured the 1st pick in the draft they actually showed some effort and won some games.

its clear you didn't watch the colts much last year. They lost six games by a td or less. Including against the patriots.

If they could win at will as you suggest, why did the new GM gut the team. There are very few hold overs from last year

[GoPats]

Just your assessment that we tanked it and Painter wasn't a NFL caliber QB (as it stood when he was untested as a starter).

Those are mighty big claims, "tanking it".  It would be nice for people to back up such strong words, in the face of evidence against it.  I have proof the Colts FO and players said they weren't tanking it.  

 

Here's another for you-

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/12/30/week-17/index.html

 

So if it is only speculation and opinion that we tanked it, I want to show that it appears misguided, or your changing the definition.  I've posted articles that deny your claims, so what am I supposed to think?

 

You aren't reading what I'm posting very clearly, or maybe I'm not expressing it well. Either way let's just leave it at that.

 

I'm guessing you also weren't watching a lot of football in 1991, when the Colts went 1-15. I watched every game in 1990 when the Patriots had the same record. Those were truly awful, awful teams. The 2011 Colts were not even close to that level of sucktitude.

 

Don't let the fact that the colts won two of their last three stand in the way of this absurd opinion

 

LOL, absurd opinion... shared by probably upwards of about 75% of the people who follow the NFL.

 

Some things just don't change. Indy fans are a passionate bunch, and I admire the passion. But on the whole, a lot of you are completely incapable of seeing the truth about your own franchise, your own players, etc.

 

Cheers and good luck against the Ravens. It's football, it's not life.

[jvan1973]

You aren't reading what I'm posting very clearly, or maybe I'm not expressing it well. Either way let's just leave it at that.

I'm guessing you also weren't watching a lot of football in 1991, when the Colts went 1-15. I watched every game in 1990 when the Patriots had the same record. Those were truly awful, awful teams. The 2011 Colts were not even close to that level of sucktitude.

LOL, absurd opinion... shared by probably upwards of about 75% of the people who follow the NFL.

Some things just don't change. Indy fans are a passionate bunch, and I admire the passion. But on the whole, a lot of you are completely incapable of seeing the truth about your own franchise, your own players, etc.

Cheers and good luck against the Ravens. It's football, it's not life.

75%... Really. Find me one article from a credible source claiming that the colts tanked games to get a better draft pick

[bayone]

 . It's football, it's not life.

 

I know this but sometimes questions others in my mind due to certain responses, usually don't bother with those members

 

as for last season , its over and done for me, time to look forward to finishing this off right

 

Hey Lion Fan Friends near me  want Megaton as MVP , I aint touching it with them, just let it pass, and they know my bias, but man lion fans are a dejected bunch and I can understand how they want some light out of this season

[GoPats]

75%... Really. Find me one article from a credible source claiming that the colts tanked games to get a better draft pick

 

Holy crap are you serious? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone here. I did not make this up in my head. Go join another team's board sometime and post it as a question in their NFL section.

 

Does "Suck for Luck" ring any bells?

 

You guys are so sensitive about this stuff. Really. It's not that big of a deal. In fact, it was smart and allowed Indy the very, very rare opportunity to go from one of the best QBs of one generation to a guy who looks to be one of the best of the next generation.

 

Have a cookie. Relax. It's not a big deal.

[GoPats]

I know this but sometimes questions others in my mind due to certain responses, usually don't bother with those members

 

as for last season , its over and done for me, time to look forward to finishing this off right

 

Hey Lion Fan Friends near me  want Megaton as MVP , I aint touching it with them, just let it pass, and they know my bias, but man lion fans are a dejected bunch and I can understand how they want some light out of this season

 

Solid advice my friend. ;)

 

Megatron was unreal this year. If the Lions did anything at all, he'd have gotten some consideration. I can't remember the last time the league MVP wasn't on a playoff team. Kind of seems like an unspoken prerequisite?

[bayone]

Solid advice my friend. ;)

 

Megatron was unreal this year. If the Lions did anything at all, he'd have gotten some consideration. I can't remember the last time the league MVP wasn't on a playoff team. Kind of seems like an unspoken prerequisite?

I think in many peoples eyes and mine to to a large degree it is, it would really have to be something truly remarkable if not unprecedented beyond all  imagination of what would be needed  to win and not be in a playoff

 

Its like no matter how good u r if u didn't get into a playoff then your value was getting the best possible record and worse drafting position just below the playoff seeds, By Definition , thats not adding value to the team i think, Unfortunate paradox

[jvan1973]

Holy crap are you serious? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone here. I did not make this up in my head. Go join another team's board sometime and post it as a question in their NFL section.

Does "Suck for Luck" ring any bells?

You guys are so sensitive about this stuff. Really. It's not that big of a deal. In fact, it was smart and allowed Indy the very, very rare opportunity to go from one of the best QBs of one generation to a guy who looks to be one of the best of the next generation.

Have a cookie. Relax. It's not a big deal.

Oh well, its on other teams message boards it must be true.. Seems like a conspiracy like that may have been leaked at this point to an actual reporter. Considering most of the team and front office were let go after the season

[Dustin]

Too many responses to my earlier post to quote anyone specifically, but there is a lot of crazy denial going on here. The notion that the Colts quit in 2011, or - worse - had no heart to win, is not something that a few fans of other teams created in our heads.

 

If you're still incredulous, google "Colts tank 2011 season" and see what's out there. Kravitz, Florio (who I don't care for, but agree with him on this one)... plenty of media people put it out there.

 

I'm not crying foul or saying that it was the wrong thing to do. I think what basically happened is that Indy had no viable, NFL-caliber backup QB on the roster. Couple that with complete ineptitude in the coaching ranks, and you've got the perfect recipe for 2-14.

 

I'm not even sure it was a conscious, deliberate decision - at least not to start with. But once it became apparent that Manning was not coming back, it's almost as though the entire organization just threw in the towel, emotionally speaking, on 2011. When it later became obvious that Manning would not be back in Indy, it was all about the transition to Andrew Luck.

 

I've said this before. Long-time Colts fans, just like long-time Patriots fans, know what a 2-win team truly looks like. Both of our franchises languished in the basement of the NFL for a good long time. If you're 40 or older, you know what I'm talking about. So, just speaking honestly, I am not at all surprised to see the Colts in the playoffs with their rookie QB leading the way.

You know who else didn't have a capable back up? Kansas City. I guess they tanked too right?

[GoPats]

Oh well, its on other teams message boards it must be true.. Seems like a conspiracy like that may have been leaked at this point to an actual reporter. Considering most of the team and front office were let go after the season

 

You know who else didn't have a capable back up? Kansas City. I guess they tanked too right?

 

 

Well at least you guys handled the discussion without getting all sensitive about it.

[YOUR GM]

LOL, absurd opinion... shared by probably upwards of about 75% of the people who follow the NFL.

 

Yeah? And at least 75% those same people who follow the NFL also hold the opinion that your organization won multiple championships by cheating... But I'm sure, in your mind, those are just the jealous ramblings of opposing fanbases, and you're every bit entitled to defend the integrity of your franchise.

 

If I'm wrong in anything I said, feel free to correct me. If you agree with what I said though, that makes you a bit of a hypocrite, don't you think? 

[GoPats]

I think in many peoples eyes and mine to to a large degree it is, it would really have to be something truly remarkable if not unprecedented beyond all  imagination of what would be needed  to win and not be in a playoff

 

Its like no matter how good u r if u didn't get into a playoff then your value was getting the best possible record and worse drafting position just below the playoff seeds, By Definition , thats not adding value to the team i think, Unfortunate paradox

 

True, true. When the Patriots were just god awful, their best player was Bruce Armstrong, an offensive tackle. If he played for anyone else he would have been a perennial Pro Bowler. (He did make 6 of them in 14 years, but... you get the point. Players on bad teams generally don't get the recognition they deserve.)

[Gramz]

I don't know who was the first person responsible for the  "Suck for Luck" phrase. 

I do however know that  I didn't like it when I first heard it, and I still don't.  

And How did  we get From  AP Better Win the MVP  back to "Suck for Luck"  again...???

 

Can the Playoffs PLEASE Get here........

[jvan1973]

Well at least you guys handled the discussion without getting all sensitive about it.

I'm not sensitive at all. I just prefer to get my facts from places other than other teams message boards.

[GoPats]

Yeah? And at least 75% those same people who follow the NFL also hold the opinion that your organization won multiple championships by cheating... But I'm sure, in your mind, those are just the jealous ramblings of opposing fanbases, and you're every bit entitled to defend the integrity of your franchise.

 

If I'm wrong in anything I said, feel free to correct me. If you agree with what I said though, that makes you a bit of a hypocrite, don't you think? 

 

So now this is an attack on the "integrity" of your franchise? You guys take yourselves very, very seriously huh?

 

It was nothing of the sort. Read up a couple of posts. I think it was brilliant, and if it really was Polian's plan, as some have speculated, then I applaud him. The Colts were going nowhere without Manning, and with all the uncertainty about his future, it would have been a smart move.

 

Resting starters in 2009 was a different story. Lost some respect for Indy when they shunned the chance to go undefeated. But do you remember who was behind that? Yup, same guy. The players hated it. You could see the disgust on Manning's face in the second half of that Jets game that season.

 

And regardless of the fact that your example is a complete apples-and-oranges thing, no. It's not hypocrisy, because to tell you the God's honest truth, I could care less what fans of other teams think about the Patriots. I'm not quite as sensitive as you guys I guess.

 

Again... have a cookie. It's good for the soul.

[GoPats]

I'm not sensitive at all. I just prefer to get my facts from places other than other teams message boards.

 

This isn't a fact-based, objective issue. It's a subjective, opinion-based issue. Unless someone uncovers some "lose a bunch of games" memo from Bill Polian, then it's always going to be that way.

 

Have you read posts from other people in this thread, such as FireJimCaldwell?

[YOUR GM]

I don't know who was the first person responsible for the  "Suck for Luck" phrase. 

I do however know that  I didn't like it when I first heard it, and I still don't.  

And How did  we get From  AP Better Win the MVP  back to "Suck for Luck"  again...???

 

Can the Playoffs PLEASE Get here........

 

That phrase actually preceded Colts country. It was coined long before Luck was even a realistic possibility for us. They started using it when Luck was still playing at Stanford, so it's not exclusive to our fanbase. I think the accusations of intentionally losing to land him would've been present for anyone who ended up with the #1 pick. I think the fact that we are a storied franchise, with a winning tradition on top of it, only added more fuel to the fire. 

[bayone]

True, true. When the Patriots were just god awful, their best player was Bruce Armstrong, an offensive tackle. If he played for anyone else he would have been a perennial Pro Bowler. (He did make 6 of them in 14 years, but... you get the point. Players on bad teams generally don't get the recognition they deserve.)

 

.

\make those making probowl on bad teams truly extrordinbary

 

Dont get me started on resting players in a perfect season I saw RE Polian Comments, & if worried about being healthy as he said then take out freeney in afc champ with 2 minutes left and up enough with long field to start last drive  that win was ensured , but no, forget to tell CCladwell to take him out &  he gets hurt for superbowl, played anyway after much hyperbaric, great 1st half, shut down brees, extended halftime with show and ankle swells from inactivity and was ineffective and couldnt pressure and stop bres at all in second half

 

Im gone on that reminder , Bye , & back to priorities

[jvan1973]

So now this is an attack on the "integrity" of your franchise? You guys take yourselves very, very seriously huh?

It was nothing of the sort. Read up a couple of posts. I think it was brilliant, and if it really was Polian's plan, as some have speculated, then I applaud him. The Colts were going nowhere without Manning, and with all the uncertainty about his future, it would have been a smart move.

Resting starters in 2009 was a different story. Lost some respect for Indy when they shunned the chance to go undefeated. But do you remember who was behind that? Yup, same guy. The players hated it. You could see the disgust on Manning's face in the second half of that Jets game that season.

And regardless of the fact that your example is a complete apples-and-oranges thing, no. It's not hypocrisy, because to tell you the God's honest truth, I could care less what fans of other teams think about the Patriots. I'm not quite as sensitive as you guys I guess.

Again... have a cookie. It's good for the soul.

if it was an organizational decision, why was polian fired following the season? The whole premise makes no sense.

And i don't have any cookies, the wife really needs to get to the grocery store..

[YOUR GM]

So now this is an attack on the "integrity" of your franchise? You guys take yourselves very, very seriously huh?

 

It was nothing of the sort. Read up a couple of posts. I think it was brilliant, and if it really was Polian's plan, as some have speculated, then I applaud him. The Colts were going nowhere without Manning, and with all the uncertainty about his future, it would have been a smart move.

 

Resting starters in 2009 was a different story. Lost some respect for Indy when they shunned the chance to go undefeated. But do you remember who was behind that? Yup, same guy. The players hated it. You could see the disgust on Manning's face in the second half of that Jets game that season.

 

And regardless of the fact that your example is a complete apples-and-oranges thing, no. It's not hypocrisy, because to tell you the God's honest truth, I could care less what fans of other teams think about the Patriots. I'm not quite as sensitive as you guys I guess.

 

Again... have a cookie. It's good for the soul.

 

It's not apples to oranges. Your entire argument is based around the opinions of opposing fanbases. I threw that same logic right back at you. I do agree that it is flawed logic to try and use the mass opinion of a bunch of fanatics as some sort of talking point. Just the same, I don't really care what you or other fanbases think about our franchise. However, if you want to come on a Colts message board and throw out generalizations about how we acquired Andrew Luck, based entirely on hear-say, expect to be called on it. 

 

We don't take ourselves too seriously, and we most certainly do not take your argument very seriously. Thanks for the cookie

[ColtsBlueFL]

You aren't reading what I'm posting very clearly, or maybe I'm not expressing it well. Either way let's just leave it at that.

 

Probably not, as I have no clue what you are trying to convey now.    Is it that they should not have gone 2-14, but they , did, and that could have played better and not gone 2-14, but they didn't, and that they did it on purpose, but not consciously?    Sorry, I don't follow.  I just know you are in support of other Pat's fan's posts, and those contain statemtns like (quote JerodMayo51) "The Colts gave up on the season last year, "

 

That is not a statement of opinion. That is a statement of fact, and that statement has been proven incorrect by many links I've posted.  I generally leave statement of preference alone, or post an opposing opinion. We can have those.  It's America.  But I sometimes get peeved when people try to broadcast their opinion as if it is ultimate truth, and they have the inside scoop; and yet they can't back it up.  I'm sure one day I'll make an incorrect claim, find I can't back it up, and get called out on it... as I should.  You can search for spygate posts from me and not find me on that train.  No evidence for me to back my feelings, so I keep them to myself.  But I have a lot of thoughts, for sure.

 

I'm guessing you also weren't watching a lot of football in 1991, when the Colts went 1-15. I watched every game in 1990 when the Patriots had the same record. Those were truly awful, awful teams. The 2011 Colts were not even close to that level of sucktitude.

 

I watch all of them.  I lived in Indy in 1987-1988. Saw Chris Chandler as a rookie.  I also know decent teams cam suck one year, and next year win the division.  Happens all the time in the NFL.  Reverse is possible too.

 

LOL, absurd opinion... shared by probably upwards of about 75% of the people who follow the NFL.

 

maybe 75% or more think  Pats, SB, asterisks too...  not that I'm saying I do...  

Some things just don't change. Indy fans are a passionate bunch, and I admire the passion. But on the whole, a lot of you are completely incapable of seeing the truth about your own franchise, your own players, etc.

 

Cheers and good luck against the Ravens. It's football, it's not life.

Yes, we need Luck, and luck against all playoff teams.  I'd say good luck to you too, but you don't need it. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

It was nothing of the sort. Read up a couple of posts. I think it was brilliant, and if it really was Polian's plan, as some have speculated, then I applaud him. The Colts were going nowhere without Manning, and with all the uncertainty about his future, it would have been a smart move.

 

Polian is on record, about resting players, and whether he manipulated for losing.  Here is a snippet of his out of an article-

 

"I am proud to be part of an organization and part of a league where players and coaches give 100 percent effort in every game,'' Polian said. "Maybe that's why we're such a popular sport.''

 

"I've been opposed to the NFL putting in a draft lottery, like the NBA, because I've never heard a credible account of a team tanking late in the year to improve its draft standing. Said Polian: "From what I've read there have been egregious and grievous violations in terms of the effort teams gave in the NBA, which I guess led to the league adopting a lottery. But there's never been a case of the NFL that I know of, and I can assure its' not going to start Sunday in Jacksonville.''

 

I told Polian fans want to know why. Why wouldn't the Colts even consider playing backups, or altering the game plan to not play their best game, if the reward was the most valuable draft choice in the NFL in years -- maybe decades?

 

"How can you build an organization with a culture of winning and look players in the eye and tell them to give their best effort every day but this one?'' Polian said. "And I'll remind you it was about 13 years ago, maybe midway through the [1998] season when Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning were rookies, that Leaf was the second coming and Peyton was the bust. In other words, like Brian Billick says, 'Nobody knows anything about the draft.' I'm in the middle of scouting this year's prospects, and I can tell you I don't know anything -- yet.''

It's in here-

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/12/30/week-17/index.html

Resting starters in 2009 was a different story. Lost some respect for Indy when they shunned the chance to go undefeated. But do you remember who was behind that? Yup, same guy. The players hated it. You could see the disgust on Manning's face in the second half of that Jets game that season.

 

He owns up to it.

And regardless of the fact that your example is a complete apples-and-oranges thing, no. It's not hypocrisy, because to tell you the God's honest truth, I could care less what fans of other teams think about the Patriots. I'm not quite as sensitive as you guys I guess.

 

Again... have a cookie. It's good for the soul.

You got 3 SB out of it,  why should you care.  Hey we DID get Andrew Luck!!  {thumbs nose at the world}  I guess I don't care what other boards think either.  Mmmmm.... cookies good!   :yay:

[Yehoodi]

Except that for 2 of those games the Pats lost, they were held under their season averages for points scored. And in 1 of those the defense held a team to their normal season average. So neither of those losses can be contributed to the defense but to Brady and the offenses inability to score points.

look we can go around and around all day on this, had the pats defense held the opponent to the Denver's D seasonal average, one of those two games you qualfied they would of won with the pats O production, so like i said we can go around and around all day . . . but the bottom line when a team defense yeilds fewer points that anothers teams defense, it helps, and can manifest itself into wins, regardless of how one wants to place the blame . . .

it might be one fewer FG or somethings . . . or it could be a game in which it holds a team down when the offense is not doing great, like the Denver games against KC a few weeks ago, i believe the score was 17-9 or something, had the D not stepped up denver would of lost that game . . . and yes in that game the denver o failed to reach is season average but the D came up big to help out . . .

and so when you average some 32 fewer points over the season, those fewer points will more than likely come in handly to help win a game, maybe one less FG in a tight game, or holding the opponent to 9 points when your offense only scores 17, an so on . . . its not going to garner one 7 wins, but one ore two is certainly in the realm . . .