AP better win the MVP and comeback player awards

[FireJimCaldwell]

I could see why

My fingers get out of control at times. Would you like to see one?

[No 1 Manning Fan]

I agree with that whole post. They announce the MVP before the Super Bowl right?

You keep agreeing with my posts, so I must ask why you think it would be a travesty if Peyton Manning were to win. Again, I'm pulling for Peterson, but since you just agreed that Manning, Brady, Rodgers, and Peterson are all right there together, and not one of them is head and shoulders above the rest, why would it bother you so much? Yes he has already won it, but looking at it based on this year alone, why would it bother you?

[JerodMayo51]

You keep agreeing with my posts, so I must ask why you think it would be a travesty if Peyton Manning were to win. Again, I'm pulling for Peterson, but since you just agreed that Manning, Brady, Rodgers, and Peterson are all right there together, and not one of them is head and shoulders above the rest, why would it bother you so much? Yes he has already won it, but looking at it based on this year alone, why would it bother you?

Because I think hes 4th out of the 4 potential candidates for MVP and him getting it would just be the media playing off his return story and everything. He has 4 already, to get another one in a race like this would just seem weak to me, but whatever, I hope Brady gets a chance to face him in the AFCCG and show him a thing or two about being an MVP.

[BleedingBlue]

Tim Teebow took the Broncos to the playoffs because the team was so good they just needed a decent QB. With manning they have dominated to the #1 seed but the Most valuable player doesn't take a playoff team to #1 seed. A MVP puts terrible team on his back and carries them past 8 in a box into the playoffs and thats exactly what AP did.

Him and manning should split CPotY, because they both did the impossible.

[DILLIGAFER]

Because I think hes 4th out of the 4 potential candidates for MVP and him getting it would just be the media playing off his return story and everything. He has 4 already, to get another one in a race like this would just seem weak to me, but whatever, I hope Brady gets a chance to face him in the AFCCG and show him a thing or two about being an MVP.

.. ya, i hope they meet up for the championship game.. Denvers gonna rock his world. Your ridiculous man. Purely ridiculous.

[jahsoul]

.. ya, i hope they meet up for the championship game.. Denvers gonna rock his world. Your ridiculous man. Purely ridiculous.

And you know this how??? lol.

 

IMO, the best QB in the NFL this year was Aaron Rodgers but it is what it is. The media doesn't really put him out there like that so he has to do the ridiculous (unlike others) to even get a notice. But I digress.

[ViriLudant]

OK, well if that's the criteria then Andrew luck should be the mvp. The colts won nine more games than they did last year without him

Except that there are many out there who feel that the Colts "sucked for Luck" last year intentionally. Not the players, but the FO.

[ViriLudant]

.. ya, i hope they meet up for the championship game.. Denvers gonna rock his world. Your ridiculous man. Purely ridiculous.

Ridiculous?

Patriots SMOKED Denver three times in a row, including against Peyton.

How is that ridiculous? Your bias is out of control. At least history backs up Mayo's post.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I don't think he should win CPOY, personally. I don't think he missed enough time last year. MVP, sure. OPOY, yes. 

 

Agreed.  Give him those two: MVP and OPOY.  CPOY?  Not IMO.  Medical interventional procedures and techniques are improving rapidly in almost all areas.  (Look up TAVR for 1  example).  Yes, AD still had to go through rehab and then perform like he never had anything done but surgeons techniques and tools they use are better than ever and make it easier.  But nerve regeneration is unpredictable and uncertain, and I know more people with multiple failed spine interventions (back and neck) than any other operation.  Peyton missed a complete season, then after 4 surgeries and equally brutal rehab process, put up numbers that compare closely to some of his best in his lofty career.  I have to go PM for CPOY, and close second, or c-mvp with AD.  AD for OPOY outright.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Except that there are many out there who feel that the Colts "sucked for Luck" last year intentionally. Not the players, but the FO.

 

All those guys in the FO that promptly lost their jobs? The one that made it to ESPN analyst mentions that every week, yes?

 

A lot of players lost their jobs, too.  Appears to be a good move.

[Yehoodi]

20 for New England 18 for Denver. Not a very large discrepancy.

two points per game is a significant when you lose three games by 4 points and two of which are by one point each . . . just saying . . . if the pats win those two games, they are 14-2, best record in football, and maybe some of the media are talking about Brady as an MVP canidate . . . and also those two wins would be against playoffs teams, thereby giving the Pats a 5-1 record against playoff teams this year . . . and that might be just enough to get over AP . . .

how do you think the MVP discussion would be changed if the pats where 14-2 and 5-1 against playoffs teams all of who have 10+ wins, and with the only lost being a missed kickoff coverage and inches from tying the greatest comeback in regular season history, as it stands now at least they tied that game . . .

so yes points per game does have some meaning . . .

[YOUR GM]

I know it's difficult to return from ACL tears, but it's been done before. They were talking about Peyton possibly never playing again and he's dominating the league right now. He deserves comeback player of the year, hands down. I agree that AP is the MVP, though. What he's done this year (with how the league favors the passing game) is remarkable. Not to mention the fact that, he's lead his team to the playoffs without an elite QB or a legit #1 receiver on offense the last several weeks. I'm tired of QB's winning MVP every year. If ever there was a season that they buck that trend, this is the year. If not, they should just rename the award as "Most Valuable Quarterback"

[House]

Except that there are many out there who feel that the Colts "sucked for Luck" last year intentionally. Not the players, but the FO.

[Yehoodi]

I guess one thing I'm hung up on is what the quarterbacks do each and every play. I believe Brady and Manning do more adjustments at the LOS than Rodgers, but they are responsible for so much more in each and every game.  

 

I don't believe there is "replacing" any of those 4 players, but I'd say that if I ranked them from how quickly they would/could be replaced would be Peterson, Rodgers, Brady and then Manning.  Part of that has to deal with their back ups, part of that has to deal with the systems that are installed. 

 

 

I had issues in 2005 & 2006 with Shaun Alexander and LaDainian Tomlinson winning it.

 

So maybe I'm prejudiced against non-quarterbacks. Maybe I put more value in the quarterback position. I know if I were given NFL team #33, and it came with the consideration that I could have either a great/elite/top-of-the-line quarterback, running back or wide receiver, I'd take QB every single time.  I think most would. 

 

To me Adrian Peterson & Calvin Johnson both have had outstanding offensive performances, which is why I had them sharing OPOY on my "ballot". To me neither one is the most valuable player of the National Football League but each should be recognized, 

(sorry for long post)

I agree with you that the QB is the most important position in football, and perhaps all of teams sports (along with goalies in hockey (who face more shots than a goalie in soccer who is close behind) and pitchers altho they only play in every 4th game . . . so perhaps just goalies in hockey) . . . so cleary the QB is very important as they touch the ball on about half of the plays for the team (with the other partial half by the D and ST taking the smaller snaps) . . .

So given this the QB has the inside track to being the MVP as he has more opportunity to have an impact on his respective team . . . also, you really can't win without a elite QB, further illustration of the impact of a QB on his team . . . however, there will always be #1 seeds and #2 seeds and invariably among those 4 teams will be one or two (or even 4) of the elite QBs in the league on those teams . . . and I am not really to yeild the MVP to a select few each year be default . . . I still need to see something from those QBs before I hand out the trophy . . .

I still need to see some kind of separation from the rest to award the trophy . . . and to degree something like '04 (48TDs, QB rating), '07 (50 TDS, most points 16-0), '09 (14-0), '10 (14-2, 36-4 tD/int). '11 (14-1, QB rat, tds, etc). . . each one of those years you had the QB creating sepearation from his peers and thus you hand the man the trophy . . .

trouble is this year I do not see any separation of those QBs from there peers . . . I see a nice story in PM sure, but a nice story has zero to do with one value on the team, one value on his teams has to do with what he does on the 16 games not what he did/or had to come from prior to week 1 (I know you are not saying this but i just added as it was in the flow of my thoughts) . . .

we then look to does any of the QB have separation from thier peers, i see Rodgers doing this in TDs and QTR, but not as great as the above mentioned teams, plus he is a #3 seed (altho in a tough division and has some injuries) . . .

we can look to the change the player has had from the prior season on his team, with or without him . . . we certain do not prevent a player from getting the MVP simply becuase he is on the same team as last year but has had a more impact this year, indeed if we did then rodgers, brady and PM (with indy) would be disqualified. . . we have seen, in those above mentioned years, these QBs on great teams elevate their play and lifted their teams to the #1 seed and did so with great year which separated themselves from the rest, as opposed to their normal greatness . . . so a player can be on the same team, but must elevate his level of play and increase the impact on his team . . .

when people look to PM and the Broncos they talk above the increase wins from the prior year, 8-8 to 13-3 which is 5 wins, great . . .but that was 8 wins with Tebow (and orten) both basically backups, so that qualifies the 8-8 and for me shortens the 5 wins . . .

but if we look to APs impact, the vikes were 3-13 last year and are 10-6 this year, and doing so in a much tougher division than the AFC east or AFC west (indeed the vikes win both divisions if they were in those two divisions) . . . this is a 7 plus win increase impact on the team . . . and given the fact that the vikes are in the playoffs with not an elite QB and 10 of the 12 teams have impact QBs on the roster (i hold out Cinn here) further the effort added by PM . . . add to this the fact that teh vikes have teh 31st rank passing offense (surely partly to do that play calling is going to AP as opposed to passing it) further the impact of AP . . . given the fact that we are in a pass happy league, need a elite QB to make noise, a RB that can take a 3-13 to the playoffs in perhaps the most tough division in football why having the 31st rank passing offense, and doing so coming within 8 years of an all time record, indicates to me that he has had the most impact on his team than any other player and thus is the most valuable to his team . . .

so botom line i see all of your points, and if all else is equal, both players having all worldly years (like marino and dickerson in 1984) the trump card goes to the QB, but if the QBs are just having a normally/normally great year without any sepration from their peers and another skilled position player leads his peers by 20% in production, helps adds 7 wins to his team, in the toughest division in football and does so with a compliment that is second to last in the leaque, for me that is more of an impact on this team even if he is at a position that takes less snaps than one that could trump him . . . at some point we can just had the trophy to the QB who has had the better year about the 4 in the top 4 seeds . . .

and like i said earlir in this or another post, had the pats been 14-2 and 5-1 against playoff teams, not so sure if that had been enough to get TB past AP . . . he would of past him had they then beaten the 49ers too, so yah TB would of had the opportunity to beat AP, but as it stands, boucnes not going out way, he is 12-4 and has Rodgers and Manning in his way . . .

my two cents . . .

EDIT: i have not look back to SD and SEA, but I would like to see if they has more help at the QB position than AP this year . . . I think that they might have, but if I recall SEA was 13-3 and SD 14-2 and both were #1 seeds which is more than the vikes this year . . .

[FireJimCaldwell]

my two cents . . .

I value those two cents far more than others from that area.

 

You make some valid points and used good examples from year to year.

Like HBA said if Peterson doesn't win it this year and a QB does maybe it should be called the most valuable Quarterback.  

 

If Manning had the identical #'s in Indy with the same cast of players that he had in 2010(meaning Clark/Addai/ the guys that were thrown away), then I think his year would be discounted some. Him coming off an injury is part of his story. I say it is part of his story even in the terms of MVP, because there was a level of rustiness he shook off. The same can be said for Peterson. Manning being on a new team is part of the story. 4k, 30td's with a new team in a way is better than 4k 30td's with a team a guys been on for years. Some disagree with that. 

 

Some want to discount the new team part of it. If he had the identical #'s and he had chose San Fran and they were 16-0(like many suggest but personally I would find that doubtful), some would be discrediting that because he chose the most complete team. He and Brady could have identical #'s, identical records, identically ranked defenses and didn't play each other head to head and some would discredit Manning just because that is what they do.  Some are too narrow-minded to even attempt to look at it. Their opinions are closed off. I said in another post there are some people you can talk/debate, heck even argue with and it is a two-way street, give and take, bit for bat. Some people you can't do that with. That is not limited to fans of any specific team. 

 

Some make comments and don't realize that one could pretty much say the same thing about other players if you simply change the name. 

 

Like I said in another post I could make an argument for 4 maybe 5/6 players for MVP. Pros/cons and +/- for each of them.  It's like looking at a car/house. Different people put different points of emphasis on various things. 

 

Separation of core #'s is an interesting take. Yet you have Drew Brees with 5k and 40whatever, but 6 or 7 wins. So in a way those #'s are distorted when you look at Manning/Brady/Rodgers. I'm not sure which guy Brady or Rodgers had the higher total of missed games out of his weapons(I'm guessing Jennings missed more than Gronk), but I also feel the WCO is easier for back ups to come in and produce over Brady's system. That to me has to be part of the equation, just like other variables. Brady & Rodgers to utilize replacements and throw to newer players, Manning had to do the same, even though it was from game 1.  It just depends on how you look at it or analyze it.

 

I've seen it said that Manning hasn't done anything special, or anything he hasn't done before. Well to me he's playing on a level that he's only eclipsed statistically once. He's not the same QB that he was in 2005, but he's adapted his game and is as successful as any QB in the game and it seems he's being penalized for being good. 

 

It just seems some discredit him for obvious reasons, which is just short sited. I'll be honest, there aren't many teams that I could see myself rooting for Brady and the Patriots against, but I'm not going to let that prevent me from being able to make an argument for his case for MVP, or say that he should be in the running.  Some don't like two-way streets. 

[Yehoodi]

Your arguing the Broncos defense was a top 5 last year? They were not. BTW, they only became a top 5 defense a couple weeks ago. They have not been a top 5 for the last 2 years.

They beat the steelers in the wild card.. steelers. In OT, and that last drive was all DT.

Wiining a division at 8-8 is not some wonderful achievement I'd been throwing around. Once the defenses of the leauge got some tape on Tebow, they learned how to play him. In a passing leauge, they werent used to a QB if you can call him that, going mobile as much as he did.

Lets face it, without Peyton, they werent sniffing the playoffs nor a winning record this year with Tebow. Let alone a 13-3 record, winning 11 straight, winning each game by 7 or more points, and a #1 seed/first round bye.

Fox, JDR, and Peyton have certainly been busy in Denver. So your going to hold team work against him?? Why? Is that not what an MVP does? Gets his team working on all cylinders? Feeding off eachother? Is that not what Peyton did in Denver? Coaches, team, players all feeding off one another? That is an MVP.

Not some ridiculous argument that to only be an MVP, the rest of your team has to suck. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. So AP gets it because his coaches suck, Ponder sucks, he has a great oline??? Yet, Peyton helped elevate the Broncos to a whole new level and demonstrated to a Tebowmainia town that only through team work, can greatness be achieved.

I get sick of reading these comments of ya but AP has a mediocre QB, coaches and is missing a WR! And he came back from a knee injury.

Yet, when the argument is made for Peyton, new coaches, new team, 4 neck surgeries he is only able to be mentioned as a CBPOY? Ludicrous!

I'm not against AP, but that argument for AP cannot be used to help him and hold it against Peyton. Judas.

wow you have a lot of questions . . . to a degree i have answer some of them in my prior post to FJC, and would ask you, if you have the time, to kindly read that post so I wouldn't have to redraft my thoughts here . . . but I will response to some of yours here . . .

i think if you are saying that the D is better this year than last, that would actually credit some of the increase in this year to the D and not necessarily the QB position . . . so that would take away some of the luster from PM . . . and surely the team helped out Tebow last year helping him get to 7-4 and last year they lost to tough teams and beat easier ones . . . but so hasn't the broncos this year, 1-2 against division winners in the AFC, and 1-3 overall against division winners . . . so last year Tebow's broncos in 11 games went 7-4 beating some while losing to others, but so have the PM broncos and who knows what tebow could of done in the other 5 games if he had the opportunity . . .

as for your teamwork point, i don't buy it . . . i don't think AP, Brady, Rodgers, Manning, or any of the other great skilled position players are any more or any less team work oriented than another, other than mayve Jamal Russel, or maybe Sanchez, can on point the finger and say Brady does more for his team off the field than RGIII . . .

as for prior injuries and comeback from them to help you team, that goes to CBOY and not the MVP, which has to do with what you do on the field and not how you comeback from an injury . . . MVP is a pure production award . . . not one based on how far you come from an injury . . .

as for the teammate being bad and how it effects the argument for or against MVP, you go back and forth with AP and PM . . . on one hand you claim that if the team around AP is bad it should not be credited to AP if they do well with him . . . then on the other hand you say PM should great credit becuase without him his teammate would not get a sniff at the playoffs . . . so you gotta pick a position, either we are going to consider the the level of talent around the player or not and if so how it effects the MVP discussion, it does matter to me how you fall on it, but we need to pick a position and apply if consistent to each of the canidates . . .

for me if a players helps an otherwise not so good team, it does in his favor in the MVP discussion . . . so year PM has elevated the broncos this year, but so has AP done to the vikes . . .

[Dustin]

two points per game is a significant when you lose three games by 4 points and two of which are by one point each . . . just saying . . . if the pats win those two games, they are 14-2, best record in football, and maybe some of the media are talking about Brady as an MVP canidate . . . and also those two wins would be against playoffs teams, thereby giving the Pats a 5-1 record against playoff teams this year . . . and that might be just enough to get over AP . . .

how do you think the MVP discussion would be changed if the pats where 14-2 and 5-1 against playoffs teams all of who have 10+ wins, and with the only lost being a missed kickoff coverage and inches from tying the greatest comeback in regular season history, as it stands now at least they tied that game . . .

so yes points per game does have some meaning . . .

 

Except that for 2 of those games the Pats lost, they were held under their season averages for points scored. And in 1 of those the defense held a team to their normal season average. So neither of those losses can be contributed to the defense but to Brady and the offenses inability to score points.

[ViriLudant]

All those guys in the FO that promptly lost their jobs? The one that made it to ESPN analyst mentions that every week, yes?

 

A lot of players lost their jobs, too.  Appears to be a good move.

You're kind of proving my point.

The Colts' FO wanted to lose, and so 2-14 sounds a lot worse than it was. If they had a FO that wanted to win, there was enough talent on that team to go at least 8-8, if they had brought in some solid free agents, a better QB than someone who had been retired for a year, etc.

[Dustin]

You're kind of proving my point.

The Colts' FO wanted to lose, and so 2-14 sounds a lot worse than it was. If they had a FO that wanted to win, there was enough talent on that team to go at least 8-8, if they had brought in some solid free agents, a better QB than someone who had been retired for a year, etc.

 

Hurt your arm reaching for that?

[GoPats]

This thread is super funny.

 

Indy fans... gotta love 'em... but many of them aren't capable of looking at Manning objectively. The best ones admit that, and don't see it as a fault or a criticism (which it's not). It's gotta be a midwest thing. You guys aren't nearly as cynical as we are, on the whole, up here in the Northeast.

 

Manning had a fantastic season, and I for one am thrilled that he is back in the league and appears to be the same old Manning. Rival or not, I respect and appreciate his talents and his contributions to the game. Plus he was Brady's chief contemporary all these years. Would Larry Bird have been Larry Bird without Magic Johnson? Would Ali be Ali without Frazier?

 

This year's MVP should be Adrian Peterson. Objectively, he clearly meant the most to his team. Neither his torn ACL nor Manning's neck should be considered when voters put in their guy for the MVP award. Those are non-factors when you look at the collective criteria. Take Peterson off the Vikes, and they're a below average team with a decent defense. He's single-handedly carried them into the playoffs.

[GoPats]

Hurt your arm reaching for that?

 

Seriously? You REALLY think that the Colts' three-season progression from 10-6 to 2-14 and now to 11-5 doesn't indicate that the entire organization basically threw in the towel last year sometime in September?

 

C'mon dude. Viri's not reaching, you are!

[Dustin]

Seriously? You REALLY think that the Colts' three-season progression from 10-6 to 2-14 and now to 11-5 doesn't indicate that the entire organization basically threw in the towel last year sometime in September?

 

C'mon dude. Viri's not reaching, you are!

 

I hope your not serious.

[bayone]

 

 

my two cents . . .

 I also value value your 2 cents

 

If any EVER A  RB deserves it its Peterson this year

 

I dont want to debate this either way please,  I accept it easily if AP gets it , of course I would prefer Peyton, I'm Biased & that has to skew my viewpoint

 

Its not other worldly stats but Peyton

 

1st QB ever to post these combined stats in 1 season

 

 

completions (400), passing yards (4,659), completion percentage (68.6%), touchdowns (37) and passer rating (105.9).

 

Oh, and by the way, he only had 11 interceptions in 2012, making him the only quarterback in NFL history to have those combined statistics in a single season.

 

1st time ever is some achievement to , though I will say this, stats can lie 

 

http://blog.denverbroncos.com/jsaccomano/perspective-only-makes-manning-greater/

 

Peyton also QBR of 84.1, next is Tom with 77.1

 

 http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

 

AGAIN JUST POINTING OUT SOME STATS NOT TRYING TO MAKE DEBATE- PETERSON'S LAST RUN ENSURED VIKINGS EASY FG TO WIN & GET IN

[House]

Anyone want to buy some tinfoil from me?

I hear it's great for making hats.

Ya know. To keep the government from reading your thoughts and what not..........

[bayone]

This thread is super funny.

 

Indy fans... gotta love 'em... but many of them aren't capable of looking at Manning objectively. The best ones admit that, and don't see it as a fault or a criticism (which it's not). It's gotta be a midwest thing. You guys aren't nearly as cynical as we are, on the whole, up here in the Northeast.

 

Manning had a fantastic season, and I for one am thrilled that he is back in the league and appears to be the same old Manning. Rival or not, I respect and appreciate his talents and his contributions to the game. Plus he was Brady's chief contemporary all these years. Would Larry Bird have been Larry Bird without Magic Johnson? Would Ali be Ali without Frazier?

 

This year's MVP should be Adrian Peterson. Objectively, he clearly meant the most to his team. Neither his torn ACL nor Manning's neck should be considered when voters put in their guy for the MVP award. Those are non-factors when you look at the collective criteria. Take Peterson off the Vikes, and they're a below average team with a decent defense. He's single-handedly carried them into the playoffs.

 

AGREE WITH Tom  & Peyton, , Bird & Magic

 

But seeing Ali from his 1st  big fight on and after what liston did to others and Ali's smarts Vs Foreman

 

There was only ali, though the computer simulation puts Marchiano as the winner by a knockout in a ton of rounds after Marchiano   was quite bloodied

 

I will never forget the newspaper picture, showing the size of Liston's fist and a caption before his  initial championship fight  questioning what then champ Floyd Paterson must be thinking

 

Plus analysts of boxing say Ali's best years of combined strength & speed WOULD HAVE BEEN the years he lost when not allowed to fight , let alone his great chin could take a hit

[hawkeyes]

Tim Teebow took the Broncos to the playoffs because the team was so good they just needed a decent QB. With manning they have dominated to the #1 seed but the Most valuable player doesn't take a playoff team to #1 seed. A MVP puts terrible team on his back and carries them past 8 in a box into the playoffs and thats exactly what AP did.

 

A washed up hasbeen Farve even took that terrible team to the brink of the SB - heck if it hadn't been for a crooked Saints team he might have led that crap team to a championship - or given us another.  Is the team that much different than then?

 

Manning for MVP!  

[Snowglobe]

Tim Teebow took the Broncos to the playoffs because the team was so good they just needed a decent QB. With manning they have dominated to the #1 seed but the Most valuable player doesn't take a playoff team to #1 seed. A MVP puts terrible team on his back and carries them past 8 in a box into the playoffs and thats exactly what AP did.

Him and manning should split CPotY, because they both did the impossible.

 

Damn for once I agree with you

[Snowglobe]

A washed up hasbeen Farve even took that terrible team to the brink of the SB - heck if it hadn't been for a crooked Saints team he might have led that crap team to a championship - or given us another.  Is the team that much different than then?

 

Manning for MVP!  

 

2009 vikes were pretty good, favre had a monster year, 2 pro bowl WRs, O and D were top 10

[bayone]

2009 vikes were pretty good, favre had a monster year, 2 pro bowl WRs, O and D were top 10

 

Best Farve year Ever & Migraine Man played quite well instead of being on IR

 

The Cowboy in Farve l;ost it at the end on that stupid IT throw

[YOUR GM]

You're kind of proving my point.

The Colts' FO wanted to lose, and so 2-14 sounds a lot worse than it was. If they had a FO that wanted to win, there was enough talent on that team to go at least 8-8, if they had brought in some solid free agents, a better QB than someone who had been retired for a year, etc.

 

You say this as if, Polian not going after big free agents, wasn't the norm. When has he ever made big splashes in free agency? He wasn't tanking; he was just being his normal, tightwad self.  

 

Seriously? You REALLY think that the Colts' three-season progression from 10-6 to 2-14 and now to 11-5 doesn't indicate that the entire organization basically threw in the towel last year sometime in September?

 

C'mon dude. Viri's not reaching, you are!

 

What a terribly myopic argument. There are only 17 players (if we're counting Collie, who hasn't even played this year), ONE coach and ONE front office employee still with the organization that was here in 2010. There are only 20 players, 2 coaches and ONE front office employee still with the organization that was here LAST season. Do I really need to break down why such turnover might change a team's outlook? It's essentially a totally different organization now -- top to bottom. Trying to compare the rosters/results of the 2010 Colts to the 2012 Colts is the beginning of a flawed line of thinking

 

Curtis Painter, Joseph Addai, Gary Brackett, Melvin Bullitt, Anthony Gonzalez, Eric Foster, Blair White, Brody Eldridge, Tyler Brayton,  David Caldwell, Chris Rucker, Kevin Thomas --- All still unemployed and looking for work. All were at one point in time significant cogs of the 2011 roster. What did they stand to gain by tanking? A good number of these players are likely done with football, altogether now. There's no amount of goodwill in the world where players will quit for the greater good of the organization, if it comes at the expense of their own livelihoods. Same goes for coaches and management.

 

I mean, c'mon. Let's be real here.......

[ColtsBlueFL]

Seriously? You REALLY think that the Colts' three-season progression from 10-6 to 2-14 and now to 11-5 doesn't indicate that the entire organization basically threw in the towel last year sometime in September?

 

C'mon dude. Viri's not reaching, you are!

 

Nobody knew Peyton was going to be out all season. Peyton was having problems and Collins was brought in, but expectations were Peyton would be back at QB at some point.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6939814/peyton-manning-disappointed-miss-indianapolis-colts-opener

 

When it became Peyton's situation was serious, we still had outside hopes of a December return.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/post/peyton-manning-will-miss-the-rest-of-the-season-indianapolis-colts-owner-says/2011/09/26/gIQATVx0yK_blog.html

 

It became apparent that Peyton had yet another operation on 9/8 and might miss the season, but not guaranteed.  The only thing guaranteed at that point was the big bux Peyton was getting in the first year of the new contract, and he was going to be missing many games.  Kerry Collins was knocked out of game 3 with a concussion, never played another down,and was placed on IR a couple weeks later.  Painter took over for Collins and started until Dan Orlovsky, cut from training camp, was re-signed after the Collins to I.R. transaction. Painter had to run the Peyton offense.  Didn't work.  It took weeks for Dan O to know the playbook, and even then they tailored it to Dan's skills and limited knowledge.  It was good enough to sneak out two late season wins.  One against a team that has never beaten us at home.

 

Now, show you evidence to back you claim the F.O purposefully tanked games to get the number 1 draft pick?

[ViriLudant]

Seriously? You REALLY think that the Colts' three-season progression from 10-6 to 2-14 and now to 11-5 doesn't indicate that the entire organization basically threw in the towel last year sometime in September?

 

C'mon dude. Viri's not reaching, you are!

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, apparently.

The funny thing is, it's a widely-held belief among NFL fans, from what I've heard/read. This isn't anything new at all.

[ViriLudant]

I hope your not serious.

Tell you what: prove to me that I'm wrong.

You can do that by showing me the trades that the Colts made last season, the free agents that they brought in to help their team win, etc.

Show me the FO's attempts to win at all costs in 2011.

Kerry Collins? A guy who came out of retirement to play? THAT was their big signing?

Please.

[YOUR GM]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, apparently.

The funny thing is, it's a widely-held belief among NFL fans, from what I've heard/read. This isn't anything new at all.

 

It's widely held because fans of the other 31 teams are just jaded by the fact that we've been able to transition from one phenom QB to another, while most teams are still searching for even one in their history. Not our problem 

[Dustin]

Tell you what: prove to me that I'm wrong.

You can do that by showing me the trades that the Colts made last season, the free agents that they brought in to help their team win, etc.

Show me the FO's attempts to win at all costs in 2011.

Kerry Collins? A guy who came out of retirement to play? THAT was their big signing?

Please.

 

Please tell me you're trolling. If you actually believe this non-sense then I feel bad for you.

[BleedingBlue]

All you had to do tank the season was let Jim Caldwell coach it.

[Gramz]

Thought I'd add some humor to this never ending thread.

I love Eli,,  but you have to admit,  this is funny..... I don't care who you are,  this is funny.

 

[shecolt]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, apparently.

The funny thing is, it's a widely-held belief among NFL fans, from what I've heard/read. This isn't anything new at all.

 

Just because NFL fans believe it that doesn't make their belief correct.

 

That would be like me saying that an asterisk should be put behind the Patriot's SB wins because many NFL fans believe it should. 

 

And just for clarification, I am not one of those who feels that an asterisk belongs after those SB wins.

[MAC]

Indy fans... gotta love 'em... but many of them aren't capable of looking at Manning objectively. The best ones admit that, and don't see it as a fault or a criticism (which it's not). It's gotta be a midwest thing. You guys aren't nearly as cynical as we are, on the whole, up here in the Northeast.

 

This year's MVP should be Adrian Peterson. Objectively, he clearly meant the most to his team. Neither his torn ACL nor Manning's neck should be considered when voters put in their guy for the MVP award. Those are non-factors when you look at the collective criteria. Take Peterson off the Vikes, and they're a below average team with a decent defense. He's single-handedly carried them into the playoffs.

Few fans are capable of being completely objective. Should we start another Brady/Manning debate and see which side you come down on? Amazing co-incidence how Colts fans think Manning is better and Patriots fans think Brady is better. It's called opinion. And I'm from the north east.

 

But regarding the MVP, I agree that the prior year injuries should be totally irrelevant. And I would also say that Manning was more deserving in 2010 when he carried the team on his back to the playoffs with one miracle after another, yet fell short statistically due to an injury ravaged offense. But he's still been superb this year and should get serious consideration - as should Brady and Rodgers. I'd like to see Manning win it, but it's not like I've watched every game for all three of them. I hope that the voters have.

 

However what I DON'T want to see is a running back get it. Same debate every year - I understand the meaning of the words "most valuable player", however that's never really been what it is in any sport. I don't care how good a year Peterson had, this isn't 1965. I don't think that any one dimensional player should get it over an elite field general. The fact that his team made the playoffs is also irrelevant. Do you honestly think that if you swapped him for Jamaal Charles that their respective teams fortunes would have been reversed as a result? I think that the only difference would be that Charles would be the one getting pushed for the MVP and Peterson would be the forgotten man. Now what would happen if KC and Denver, or Minn and GB switched QBs?

[Superman]

Few fans are capable of being completely objective. Should we start another Brady/Manning debate and see which side you come down on? Amazing co-incidence how Colts fans think Manning is better and Patriots fans think Brady is better. It's called opinion. And I'm from the north east.

 

But regarding the MVP, I agree that the prior year injuries should be totally irrelevant. And I would also say that Manning was more deserving in 2010 when he carried the team on his back to the playoffs with one miracle after another, yet fell short statistically due to an injury ravaged offense. But he's still been superb this year and should get serious consideration - as should Brady and Rodgers. I'd like to see Manning win it, but it's not like I've watched every game for all three of them. I hope that the voters have.

 

However what I DON'T want to see is a running back get it. Same debate every year - I understand the meaning of the words "most valuable player", however that's never really been what it is in any sport. I don't care how good a year Peterson had, this isn't 1965. I don't think that any one dimensional player should get it over an elite field general. The fact that his team made the playoffs is also irrelevant. Do you honestly think that if you swapped him for Jamaal Charles that their respective teams fortunes would have been reversed as a result? I think that the only difference would be that Charles would be the one getting pushed for the MVP and Peterson would be the forgotten man. Now what would happen if KC and Denver, or Minn and GB switched QBs?

 

That's actually why I think AP is deserving. 

 

The league is catered toward quarterbacks anymore. Not that it's easy, but when you look at all these stats going down here lately, it's just a matter of time until the record books are all filled with accomplishments from the past ten years, particularly the passing records. Touchdowns, yards, attempts, completions, percentage, rating... none of them will stand for the next five seasons, because the league is slanted toward the passing game. In a similar vein, that's why I think AP's pursuit of Dickerson's record is more impressive than CJ's pursuit of Rice's record. CJ's quarterback broke the NFL record for single season passing attempts, and CJ probably broke the NFL record for targets.

 

Meanwhile, the Vikings have a very limited player at quarterback. He's got some potential, but Ponder is in the bottom third of the league, statistically and otherwise. Their best receiving threat has been out half the season (and in the first half, he was probably their most important player, which is ironic considering I'm arguing that AP is deserving of MVP). It's not really about the yards that AP has earned -- and that's an impressive amount of yards in a league where the run game is going out of style, and on a team with a limited passing attack. It's about the way Peterson carried his team for the majority of the season. Even though defenses have no respect for Ponder and were stacking the box, AP was highly productive, week after week, moving the ball and scoring touchdowns. The quarterback threw for only 838 more yards than the running back ran for. There were several games this season where AP had more rushing yards than Ponder had passing yards.

 

I think the quarterback is the most important position in sports, period. The running game isn't as important as it was 40 years ago, or even 7 years ago when LaDanian Tomlinson and Shaun Alexander won MVP. As a rule, no running back is as important as a quality quarterback, because the run game is easier to manufacture with average players at running back than the passing game is to manufacture with average players at quarterback (the Colts proved this in 2011). But this year, AP was the most important player on the Vikings, hands down. I don't think anyone would deny that.

 

(And I disagree with the idea that the Vikings make the playoffs with Jamaal Charles instead of AP. No way to determine that definitively, but I don't think there's another back in the NFL that would have been nearly as productive in Minnesota this season.)

 

So now, for me, the question is whether he was more important to the Vikings than any other player was to his team. I think there's an argument to be made in that regard as well. I personally think players like Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Ryan and even Luck are just as important to their teams as Peterson was to his. But the fact that he was so important to his team as a player from a position that isn't generally as important and doesn't have the same impact is HUGE. He's not supposed to be so critical to their season, and yet, he was. To me, it's a bonus for him.

 

If I had a vote, I'd probably be torn between Manning and Peterson (Manning's qualifications are a whole nother post). If Peterson gets it, I think it's well-deserved. 

 

I'd go with Manning for CPOY all the way, though.