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Quarterbacks on Money Down(3rd down)


HtownColt

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here is an write up on how quarterbacks rank in 3rd down conversions. I know people want to compare RGIII rank in these categories so I will add where he ranks as well

Luck ranks 7th in 3rd down completion % at 42.9% not including scrambles and rushes. RGIII ranks 25th at 34%

Luck ranks 5th in 3rd down completion % at 47% including scrambles and rushes. RGIII ranks 19th at 37.7%

Luck ranks 1st in effeciency on 3rd down runs and scrambles at 82%. RGIII ranks 4th at 50%

Luck ranks 2nd in 3rd and long(8+ yards or more) down completion % at 42.5% (31 conversions on the year). RGIII ranks 38th(last) at 10.2% (just 5 conversions all year). not including rushes and scrambles.

Luck ranks 1st in 3rd and long(8+ yards or more) down completion % at 44.9% (35 conversions on the year). RGIII jumps to 37th(2nd worst) at 17.2% (11 conversions on the year) including rushes and scrambles

if you are curious of where other qbs rank in these categories here is the link http://www.coltsauth...a-magician.html

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You might want to reword it..

You are using completion % of 42.9% which is inaccurate. his 3rd down completion% is 53.7.

On 3rd down he's 72/134 (53.7%) for 1059 5 td 5 int. 59 first downs and 11 sacks, 2 fumbles and 2 lost fumbles.

59 of his 72 completions have resulted in first downs. 81.9%

59 of his 134 3rd down passes have resulted in first downs. 44.0%

59 of his 145 pass plays(attempts + sacks) have resulted in a first down. 40.7%

Rushing the ball

on 3rd down he has 16 attempts 99 yards and 11 first downs.

I didn't read the article you posted, I don't pay much attention to that site. I generate my own #'s so maybe their data was wrong. Who knows... Whether the gather their #'s I don't know, but there seems to be some errors somewhere... I use a multitude of resources.

http://sportsillustr...ing_splits.html

http://sportsillustr...ing_splits.html

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/25711/situational

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You might want to reword it..

You are using completion % of 42.9% which is inaccurate. his 3rd down completion% is 53.7.

On 3rd down he's 72/134 (53.7%) for 1059 5 td 5 int. 59 first downs and 11 sacks, 2 fumbles and 2 lost fumbles.

59 of his 72 completions have resulted in first downs. 81.9%

59 of his 134 3rd down passes have resulted in first downs. 44.0%

59 of his 145 pass plays(attempts + sacks) have resulted in a first down. 40.7%

Rushing the ball

on 3rd down he has 16 attempts 99 yards and 11 first downs.

I didn't read the article you posted, I don't pay much attention to that site. I generate my own #'s so maybe their data was wrong. Who knows... Whether the gather their #'s I don't know, but there seems to be some errors somewhere... I use a multitude of resources.

http://sportsillustr...ing_splits.html

http://sportsillustr...ing_splits.html

http://sports.yahoo....711/situational

my bad they have it as 3rd and 4th down completion % they put them two downs together i was reading too fast and it slipped by me. they have him 63/147 conversions at 42.9%. All those numbers are based on 3rd and 4th down.

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my bad they have it as 3rd and 4th down completion % they put them two downs together i was reading too fast and it slipped by me. they have him 63/147 conversions at 42.9%. All those numbers are based on 3rd and 4th down.

The team is 78/178 on 3rd downs and 7/8 on 4th so I guess they are trying to create a stat based on him either throwing it or running it on 3rd down.

3rd Down I have 59/145 pass plays have resulted in first downs and , 11 out of 16 runs have resulted in first downs, Which would be a total of 70/161. So I'm not sure where they are gathering their data.

145 pass plays is made up of 134 passes and 11 sacks.

4th down passing I have 3/3 3 first downs 1 td, 0 sacks

4th down rushing I have 3 rushes 1 td 2 first downs. so 2/3 resulted in first downs of 5/6 total on 4th down

Would bring the totals to

Passing of 62/148 and 13/18 rushing.. 75/166 overall. So again I'm not sure where they are gathering their information.

It sounds like they are attempting to cherry-pick groups of #'s that are favorable to the point they are trying to make...

Who knows.

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The team is 78/178 on 3rd downs and 7/8 on 4th so I guess they are trying to create a stat based on him either throwing it or running it on 3rd down.

3rd Down I have 59/145 pass plays have resulted in first downs and , 11 out of 16 runs have resulted in first downs, Which would be a total of 70/161. So I'm not sure where they are gathering their data.

145 pass plays is made up of 134 passes and 11 sacks.

4th down passing I have 3/3 3 first downs 1 td, 0 sacks

4th down rushing I have 3 rushes 1 td 2 first downs. so 2/3 resulted in first downs of 5/6 total on 4th down

Would bring the totals to

Passing of 62/148 and 13/18 rushing.. 75/166 overall. So again I'm not sure where they are gathering their information.

It sounds like they are attempting to cherry-pick groups of #'s that are favorable to the point they are trying to make...

Who knows.

this is what he said he used and did. "I used Pro-Football-Reference's handy-dandy game-play finder, threw out any spikes or kneel-downs, and ran the numbers for every starting quarterback in the league."..

which luck only has 1 spike on 3rd down(Buffalo) and 2 kneel downs on 3rd down

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Luck is good on third down, yes, but this is a highly misleading stat. The Redskins have been extremely good in early down situations relative to the rest of the league and aren't put into the third down situations the Colts are. The Redskins always rely on the first down carry to gain three to four yards; if they do that, they're pretty much guaranteed to pick up the first down because of the deception of play action on the next play. However, if they get TFL'd on first down, it becomes an uphill struggled because teams won't bite as hard on play action. The situation has been more often and not getting positive yardage on first down because Morris is incredibly good after first contact. If you watched the game on Monday night, the only reason it was close was because the Giants controlled the clock in the first half and Alfred Morris fumbled in scoring position. The Redskins glided up and down the field with ease, averaging over 7 yards per play and controlling the ball for an ungodly 11 minutes in the fourth quarter.

But yes, Andrew Luck has been a monster on the money down this year. Even the most ardent RG3 supporters have to acknowledge his superiority here. But as I said, the situations are usually entirely different and this is not exactly a good statistic to use for comparison.

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Converting/stopping plays on 3rd down is a key concept of football, but I still feel that 1st down is the most important down since it sets the tone for other downs. A strong play on 1st down, you either set yourself up with another 1st down, or 2nd & medium to short...

A failed first down attempt, you are 2nd & long, and then at times you go for broke, or you try to set up 3rd and more manageable I guess it's all about how you look at it.

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Luck is good on third down, yes, but this is a highly misleading stat. The Redskins have been extremely good in early down situations relative to the rest of the league and aren't put into the third down situations the Colts are. The Redskins always rely on the first down carry to gain three to four yards; if they do that, they're pretty much guaranteed to pick up the first down because of the deception of play action on the next play. However, if they get TFL'd on first down, it becomes an uphill struggled because teams won't bite as hard on play action. The situation has been more often and not getting positive yardage on first down because Morris is incredibly good after first contact. If you watched the game on Monday night, the only reason it was close was because the Giants controlled the clock in the first half and Alfred Morris fumbled in scoring position. The Redskins glided up and down the field with ease, averaging over 7 yards per play and controlling the ball for an ungodly 11 minutes in the fourth quarter.

But yes, Andrew Luck has been a monster on the money down this year. Even the most ardent RG3 supporters have to acknowledge his superiority here. But as I said, the situations are usually entirely different and this is not exactly a good statistic to use for comparison.

But when RGIII is put in 3rd down situations he hasn't been good.

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But when RGIII is put in 3rd down situations he hasn't been good.

While Andrew Luck is undoubdtedly superior on third down, it's still misleading because the Redskins face fewer third down situations and are vastly superior on first and second down. And Griffin's third down passing has not hampered the Redskins at all: they have scored 86 points since the bye, and Griffin has a 140+ passer rating with 9 TDs and 1 interception.

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these luck vs RG3 comparisons are starting to get old lol. both QB's are playing exceptionaly well for their teams. reguardless of 3rd down % or any other stat for that matter. what really matters is this:

Luck has the colts 8-4 and right now in the driver seat for the 5th seed. has led 5 outstanding comebacks.

RG3 has the redskins on a 3 game winning streak (all against division rivals) and a game behind the giants (who plays new orleans,atlanta and baltimore in 3 of their last 4 games) basically with the skins easier schedule he has them at a better chance in winning the NFC East.

both QB's could have their teams in the playoffs which is a big improvement compared to both teams seasons a year ago.

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these luck vs RG3 comparisons are starting to get old lol. both QB's are playing exceptionaly well for their teams. reguardless of 3rd down % or any other stat for that matter. what really matters is this:

Luck has the colts 8-4 and right now in the driver seat for the 5th seed. has led 5 outstanding comebacks.

RG3 has the redskins on a 3 game winning streak (all against division rivals) and a game behind the giants (who plays new orleans,atlanta and baltimore in 3 of their last 4 games) basically with the skins easier schedule he has them at a better chance in winning the NFC East.

both QB's could have their teams in the playoffs which is a big improvement compared to both teams seasons a year ago.

no no no, I've got stats that you need to see.

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Luck is good on third down, yes, but this is a highly misleading stat. The Redskins have been extremely good in early down situations relative to the rest of the league and aren't put into the third down situations the Colts are. The Redskins always rely on the first down carry to gain three to four yards; if they do that, they're pretty much guaranteed to pick up the first down because of the deception of play action on the next play. However, if they get TFL'd on first down, it becomes an uphill struggled because teams won't bite as hard on play action. The situation has been more often and not getting positive yardage on first down because Morris is incredibly good after first contact. If you watched the game on Monday night, the only reason it was close was because the Giants controlled the clock in the first half and Alfred Morris fumbled in scoring position. The Redskins glided up and down the field with ease, averaging over 7 yards per play and controlling the ball for an ungodly 11 minutes in the fourth quarter.

But yes, Andrew Luck has been a monster on the money down this year. Even the most ardent RG3 supporters have to acknowledge his superiority here. But as I said, the situations are usually entirely different and this is not exactly a good statistic to use for comparison.

While Andrew Luck is undoubdtedly superior on third down, it's still misleading because the Redskins face fewer third down situations and are vastly superior on first and second down. And Griffin's third down passing has not hampered the Redskins at all: they have scored 86 points since the bye, and Griffin has a 140+ passer rating with 9 TDs and 1 interception.

It's funny how when the stats support RG3's superiority that it's just stats tell the story, but when the stats support Luck's superiority, those stats are misleading because of this, that, and this. There are variable's behind all the stats and they are indeed many times "misleading", but ya just can't cherry pick which one's you want to say are accurate and which one's aren't.

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It's funny how when the stats support RG3's superiority that it's just stats tell the story, but when the stats support Luck's superiority, those stats are misleading because of this, that, and this. There are variable's behind all the stats and they are indeed many times "misleading", but ya just can't cherry pick which one's you want to say are accurate and which one's aren't.

I have never argued otherwise. In my short time here, for example,I have always conceded that Griffin gets open passes. Stats require qualification, though, and in the case of the accuracy stat, it is caused by Griffin's deception and natural skill. Likewise, I have conceded that Andrew Luck does attempt more "difficult" passes, but with the qualification that what is difficult is not black and white, and that he may simply having trouble reading defenses, or that he has to force passes because receivers don't get open.

I may believe that Griffin has been having a better year but you won't find me degrading Andrew Luck in order to prove my point.

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I have never argued otherwise. In my short time here, for example,I have always conceded that Griffin gets open passes. Stats require qualification, though, and in the case of the accuracy stat, it is caused by Griffin's deception and natural skill. Likewise, I have conceded that Andrew Luck does attempt more "difficult" passes, but with the qualification that what is difficult is not black and white, and that he may simply having trouble reading defenses, or that he has to force passes because receivers don't get open.

I may believe that Griffin has been having a better year but you won't find me degrading Andrew Luck in order to prove my point.

Fair enough, but there are many skins fans that do that.

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While Andrew Luck is undoubdtedly superior on third down, it's still misleading because the Redskins face fewer third down situations and are vastly superior on first and second down. And Griffin's third down passing has not hampered the Redskins at all: they have scored 86 points since the bye, and Griffin has a 140+ passer rating with 9 TDs and 1 interception.

How good have the Redskins been on 1st and 2nd down? They have fewer 3rd down attempts than any team in the NFL and lead the NFL in yards per play (6.2)

How good have the Colts been on 3rd down? They led the league in 3rd down attempts are are 5th in the NFL in 3rd down coversions (44%)

What kills the Redskins on 3rd downs? Penalties. They lead the NFL in Penalites and Penalty yards per game on offense (97 penalties for 826 yards).

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It's funny how when the stats support RG3's superiority that it's just stats tell the story, but when the stats support Luck's superiority, those stats are misleading because of this, that, and this. There are variable's behind all the stats and they are indeed many times "misleading", but ya just can't cherry pick which one's you want to say are accurate and which one's aren't.

You can make stats say whatever you want

Luck Leads the NFL in interceptions and attempts. That can mean:

1. He cant read defenses

2. He takes too many risks

3. WR's cant get open consistenly

or

1. He's a gunslinger

2. He's not afraid

3. He gives his WR's a change to make a play

RG3 leads the NFL in fewest pics thrown and is 4th in the NFL in completion %. That can mean:

1. He cant read defenses so they limit his options

2. He doesnt take enough risks

3. He doesnt run a complicated offense.

or

1. He's accurate

2. He's smart

3. He plays within the offense and only takes calculated risks

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I have never argued otherwise. In my short time here, for example,I have always conceded that Griffin gets open passes. Stats require qualification, though, and in the case of the accuracy stat, it is caused by Griffin's deception and natural skill. Likewise, I have conceded that Andrew Luck does attempt more "difficult" passes, but with the qualification that what is difficult is not black and white, and that he may simply having trouble reading defenses, or that he has to force passes because receivers don't get open.

I may believe that Griffin has been having a better year but you won't find me degrading Andrew Luck in order to prove my point.

What the stat shows is that when rg3 is put in a situation where the defense knows its a pass he struggles to find the open man. Luck faces this pretty much every down because teams don't have to fear the run or an option game.the skins make a lot of quick throws and their deep balls come off play action and the WR are wide open. Rg3 doesn't have to attempt the difficult throws but when he does he's the worst in the league when it's 3rd and long an obvious passing situation.

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What the stat shows is that when rg3 is put in a situation where the defense knows its a pass he struggles to find the open man. Luck faces this pretty much every down because teams don't have to fear the run or an option game.the skins make a lot of quick throws and their deep balls come off play action and the WR are wide open. Rg3 doesn't have to attempt the difficult throws but when he does he's the worst in the league when it's 3rd and long an obvious passing situation.

You ignored my ENTIRE point. These stats are hardly relevant for comparison because RG3 is hardly ever in third down situations compared to Luck because the Redskins are vastly superior to the Colts on first and second down. It's like trying to argue that Macs are better than PCs because PCs get more viruses: yes, this is true, but it's not because the software is greatly inferior, but simply because PCs have a much larger user base.

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You ignored my ENTIRE point. These stats are hardly relevant fit comparison because RG3 is hardly ever in third down situations compared to Luck because the Redskins are vastly superior to the Colts on first and second down. It's like trying to argue that Macs are better than PCs because PCs get more viruses: yes, this is true, but it's not because the software is greatly inferior, but simply because PCs have a much larger user base.

Vastly superior on first and second down.. Vastly inferior in the W column.

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Vastly superior on first and second down.. Vastly inferior in the W column.

5 fourth quarter ties or leads blown by the defense will do that to you. Redskins could realistically be sitting at 9-3 right now if the defense didn't perform so terribly in the first half of the season.

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You ignored my ENTIRE point. These stats are hardly relevant for comparison because RG3 is hardly ever in third down situations compared to Luck because the Redskins are vastly superior to the Colts on first and second down. It's like trying to argue that Macs are better than PCs because PCs get more viruses: yes, this is true, but it's not because the software is greatly inferior, but simply because PCs have a much larger user base.

It doesn't matter if he is hardly ever in those situations. The fact is that he is in the situations and has failed. Having less long 3rd downs could be an advantage if you could convert them because you wouldn't have a chance to miss a bunch and lower your %

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5 fourth quarter ties or leads blown by the defense will do that to you. Redskins could realistically be sitting at 9-3 right now if the defense didn't perform so terribly in the first half of the season.

The great qbs find a way. You could say a lot of teams could be 9-3 or 8-4 right now but they aren't.

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5 fourth quarter ties or leads blown by the defense will do that to you. Redskins could realistically be sitting at 9-3 right now if the defense didn't perform so terribly in the first half of the season.

How many threads have I read on stat's from the Redskin's fans, yet....when it is posted on a win a loss statistic, that is somehow not accepted? The colts "should have" won the first Jacksonville game which means we "should" have been 8-3. Is that what show's up in the stats. No. We are 8-4 and considering how we were predicted to be bottom feeders, that record has made more than one reporter shake their head's in that disbelief. Credit needs to be given where credit is due. The Colts are playing as a team, and when they need to come through they normally do.

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The great qbs find a way. You could say a lot of teams could be 9-3 or 8-4 right now but they aren't.

Find a way after a personal foul by your teammate pushes you out of field goal range after you just drove into it with 15ish seconds left?

Find a way after a personal foul by your offensive coordinator creates a 3rd and 50 scenario when you're driving with 40ish seconds left for a touchdown?

Find a way after you get knocked out of the game (this is the biggest iffy, as Cousins pretty much gave the game away with two consecutive picks)?

Find a way after you had JUST driven down the field to score the go-ahead touchdown, just for the touchdown to be taken back on the next play, and then while driving on the very next series your wide receiver fumbles the ball to ice the game?

You're docking Griffin for something that is quite literally out of his control. It makes no sense to me.

How many threads have I read on stat's from the Redskin's fans, yet....when it is posted on a win a loss statistic, that is somehow not accepted? The colts "should have" won the first Jacksonville game which means we "should" have been 8-3. Is that what show's up in the stats. No. We are 8-4 and considering how we were predicted to be bottom feeders, at the present time it has some reporter's shaking their head in disbelief. Credit needs to be given where credit is due. The Colts are playing as a team, and when they need to come through they normally do.

And that's fair enough, you should be 9-3 and I give the Colts all the credit in the world for that. I'm not here to discredit Andrew Luck and his accomplishments at all. It's funny, though; another Colts fan in another thread posted that Vince Young's rookie record should be ignored because no individual player wins a game.

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These arguments are pointless because right now the skins option attack is working and no matter what rg3 does espn is going to find a way to make it amazing. The guy fumbles and his WR scores on the fumble and its omg rg3 is amazing he's magical. Not rg3 needs to work on protecting the ball he almost made a huge turnover in the redzone. Fact is they are both playing great for rookies. Time will tell who had the better career.

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Of course not, he went to Purdue. He's terrible. haha

I kid, I kid only say that cause I'm an IU fan.

Go Hoosiers.

Ah, I see Painter has tainted Purdue's reputation. haha I think they sent him to Indianapolis on purpose...they wanted to bring the town's best team down, and they managed it in 2011 :lol:

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It doesn't matter if he is hardly ever in those situations.

Excuse me? I believe this thread refers to 3rd down as the money down. The only reason you aren't getting on the money down is because you don't have to. It would be highly advantageous for a team to face fewer third downs because it means fewer chances for punts and field goals and more chances for third downs.

Having less long 3rd downs could be an advantage if you could convert them because you wouldn't have a chance to miss a bunch and lower your %

Irrelevant when the Redskins face the fewest third downs in the NFL anyway.

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Ah, I see Painter has tainted Purdue's reputation. haha I think they sent him to Indianapolis on purpose...they wanted to bring the town's best team down, and they managed it in 2011 :lol:

Nah, nothing to do with Painter at all. Just good old fashioned IU/Purdue rivalry. One of the biggest rivals in college sports BY FAR. Always has been.

But yes Painter and don't forget Collins really had an epic season of terribleness last year!!!!

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